RubySoho
Winston
Epicurus On God
April 20th 2009 01:16
"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then is he impotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"
Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"
Discuss.
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Comment by alt_ed
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Just kidding. Epicurus didn't believe in God either. I kind of wanted to hold off giving my own opinion until I read others. Basically the question Epicurus postulates is 'The problem of evil'. As in how could a great God allow evil to exist? I think Epicurus was arguing that he couldn't. Therefore He does not exist. More details later.
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I'm certain that if God did exist he would simply want people to be happy and good people; not little ass-suckers who just try and appease him.
Like any good parent, god would just want to see his kids smiling regardless of whether they are successful business people, their sexuality, whether or not they choose to have kids etc.
As an Atheist, sometimes I feel like being proven wrong would be beneficial to society; I'd much rather God exist so that we could end all the religious carnage in the world... When was the last killing in the name of Atheism?
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In terms of your question, Ruby. God is able to prevent evil, but is unwilling to turn us into robots. This does not make him malevolent. It means that he prefers us to choose what to do, rather than force it upon us. And because we have freedom of choice - or free will - we use that free will to commit evil.
I think I've used pretty similar arguments in the past for things, but I'll use it again anyway. If I let my children play outside, there is a good chance they will hurt themselves. Now I am able to stop them playing anywhere where they can get hurt. But I am not willing to do that. However, this unwillingness to prevent them being hurt does not mean I actually want them to get hurt. It's just that their freedom is also important. I am neither a malevolent or an impotent mother. I am a mother who cares so much for her children that I am prepared to see them hurt themselves, instead of taking away their freedom.
Samaritan
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so lets say "evil" is a state of mind brought on by an inability to relate to others or empathise with others, and a person like Joseph Fritzl approaches the 100% mark, is it because god doesnt care?
well if you substitute the word "god" for collective consciousness" i say yes, it is due to a lack of care that someone like Fritzl never experiences any boundaries or feels accountable or remorsful
but perhaps there is a streak of malevolence in there too, the desire to know there is someone worse off than ourselves, so we never allow the system to run completely efficiently, there is always some loophole or blindspot where crime will fester
perhaps believers in god see tragedy as gods way of warning them thats what could happen if they stray from the path, in which case god allows innocent people to suffer so that those who follow him can have real life educational examples, which is malevolent
Comment by RubySoho
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I have heard the free will argument before as well as the parent/child analogy. However, I do think there is a big difference between a child scraping their knee and the horrors that millions of innocent people are subjected to each day. Does a murder victim appreciate the fact that her killer is free in the eyes of god in her dying moments? Or a child who is the subject of abuse? Or the soldier captured and tortured in war? If God were omnipotent and wise why then, could he not create a race of people who did not desire to do such harmful things to each other?
But to use your analogy, if you caught your child hurting another would you stand by and watch? Or would you intervene and try to stop them?
Comment by RubySoho
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I totally agree. In fact, i usually avoid using the term 'evil' but have done so in this case as that is the term Epicurus used. When I read his quote, I also think about bad things that happen that are not even mankind's doing. David Attenborough famously said that he cannot believe in God in a world where brain eating parasites burrow through the eyes of children, a phenomenon he has witnessed firsthand in Africa.
So even if you reject the notion of 'evil' as you and I do you can still ask, how can god possibly exist and is this world really the best he could do?
Again, I agree. for reason that should be apparent.
Comment by samaritan
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Firstly, the problem of evil and suffering is probably one of the hardest things for Christians to answer. It's a question I struggle with - and I'm sure most Christians, if they are honest, feel the same way. I don't think any Christian can provide an easy answer for why suffering happens.
I guess the best way to answer it is to say I do struggle with the question but I believe in God anyway. And so even though I can't provide you with any easy nice little solve it all answers, I can tell you what helps me to reconcile belief in God with the presence of suffering.
Firstly, a child's scraped knee may be different to the terrors that go in the world. But to that child, it's the end of the world. Perhaps, if we knew what God knews, we would have a different perspective. I know that sounds callous and cold-hearted, but I want to be honest.
Secondly, I know that good does often come out of suffering. For the recent bushfires, someone whose house had burnt down, said he had never encountered such love and goodness from people in his life and very much doubted he ever would again. Now I don't think God causes suffering for the good that comes out of it, but I think he does work in bad things to bring about good things.
Thirdly, if God decided to intervene to stop suffering, at what point? Where does he draw the line in the sand and say no, this is too much? And how do we know he hasn't already drawn the line in the sand? Perhaps there is evil that hasn't happened in the world because God intervened. If God did intervene to prevent the suffering we now see, would we be asking why he didn't present what to us would seem like terrible suffering - because we had nothing worse to compare it to?
Now none of this makes me go okay, I'm quite okay with suffering and God in the world now. And so I don't expect any of this to convince you. It's just certain things that help me to try and make sense of what is difficult to make sense of. And although it is difficult to understand, I know that the presence of suffering does not make me think that God doesn't exist - anymore than I expect the presence of love and goodness convinces you that God does exist.
And in answer to your question, no, not always. Sometimes my kids fight. Sometimes I intervene. But sometimes it's something that needs to be sorted out between the two of them. Now if someone was seriously hurting the other one, of course I would stop it. But from their perspective, there's probably a lot of times they think I should intervene when I don't.
Look, I think God should intervene a lot of the times, when he doesn't. And I don't understand why he doesn't step in. But I still believe in God. And so I just have to believe that there are good reasons for that, even if it doesn't make sense to me now.
Samaritan
Comment by Lilla
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For me, God is perfection, beauty and all good things that give and sustain life ... also free will. That is the deal that comes with life, and with it karma ; the thing that requires we take responsibility and adhere to the free will until we (collectively) get back to God /dess and realise we are co creators in our own universe, in the likness of God/dess. (I won*t keep writing God like that, but that is how I am thinking of the creator). I think the truth of this diety is so beyond our feeble mind to comprehend, yet it must contain both male and female to have created both, so to me is androgynous, yet as I say, must go so far boyond such primitive ideas in reality to have created such a universe as to make me look like a monkey up a tree chattering away in trying to picture such magnificence, truly.
Point to soul.
You cannot, for it is immortal and not of our mind.
To me it is clear that Gods Will has always been that we experience free will and not that we experience bad things, but humans liek to assign blame to absolve themselves of responsibility. To me what goes around comes around and bad things happen because of karma and our own negative thinking again often boyond our ability to comprehend. There are many ancient civilisations who tell us that karma is not finished when we die either apparently, but continues through with us in many incarnations, until consciousness reaches the point of not needing karma to baby sit us any longer.
This belief in reinccarnation is echoed in the bible too when the disciples asked asked Jesus if he was John the Baptist come again, or when they asked something about Abraham coming again to fulfil the prophesy etc. (I can*t rememebr the exact Chapters and verse No: but you know the ones I mean?)
Until then, it seems that karma works on the principle that each thought or action is a mind seed which is placed in our mind stream and sits there waiting for the right conditions to germinate. So, negative thoughts and actions attract negative and positive, positive. Lets face it, how many people will stop and think for example, about giving themselves something good next Thursday afternoon, placing that positive mind seed in their mind stream, so if conditions match it, something good will happen to them? But how many will place a mind seed of negative, drama, hardship, suffering.
It is harder work to plant postive seeds in the minds eye than negative ones.
The thing is that we expect them to all occur in just one lifetime too, when in fact our mind seeds are with us from beginingless time. So if conditions in this life are ripe for a particular mind seed to manifest, it will and bingo! strange / horrible / sad / funny things happen to us out of the blue.
I guess that is why all religions claim that is why we must be vigilant the moment we are able to be, for there are three types of laziness to guard against : indolence, the wish to procrastinate; inferiority, doubting your own capabilities; and attachment to negative actions, putting great effort into non virtues.
Mis use money now and next time you may be poor (*chuckle* that*s what happened to me this time round I think). Take a life (and we have all probably been murderers and murdered at some stage) and your life will be taken. Some come to live a very short life to teach that lesson, especially if we have widowed others in battles of the past. Something that past life regression can soon clear up, but so few want to heal themselves now as we reach the darkest of days before the new light rises.
Apparently we make sacred contracts in that we all decide these things before we accept the life and drink at the river of forgetfulness, like in the Myth of Er, (who, incidentally, didn*t drink and remembered everything and proved there was absolutely no point to being alive in the first place). Er?
If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not.
Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?
Some of course, believe that we must not read the fine print and then moan and complain when they get *bad parents,* situations or whatever.. . but in reality siffering does begin in the mind when we cannot accept what is happening to us, perhaps that IS the lesson : to work on the feeble human mind*s view of suffering, because to me if Jesus died for me, then constantly suffering and not enjoying life must be a real slap in the face for all that suffering that was done on my behalf, no?
karma is a nice gentle system which makes a lot of sense to me and certainly does not make God the one who allows bad to happen, but like any good parent, allows the children to make their own mistakes after dropping them off to school where the teachers take care of them ~ well those who will listen to their elders, teachers and guides. Who should be teaching us how to find God for ourselves, in the silence of our practices.
That works for me.
I could give a detailed history on how some believe karma was instigated by the originators, because of the abuse of the freewill as the base lizard race energies started to degrade the human existance during Lumeria and Atlantis, but i might fry too many brains in the process. I have read so much on this one : some of the historical evidence is sound, some a bit sketchy. . . except to say, that karma itself wasn*t instigated as a punishment module, but one to help people take responsibility for their laziness as they made their way back to the ONE . . or something like that.
So, I do not think we can blame God for the bad things that happen to us, only ourselves and then when those bad things have passed, thank God / dess sincerely that the karma for that debt is repaid and we don*t have to live that ever again. Lessons learned.
Luckily there are antidotes to help us with the pain of that acceptance along the way and ways to purify bad karma which may be waiting in the wings for the right conditions. It is why religious people are so careful I guess. Meditation, prayer and ritual are REALLY IMPORTANT, once you work out that you are responsible for whats going on in your life.
Just some casual thoughts and ideas to add to the mix. .
Lilla ..
Comment by samaritan
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I do know quite a few people who have strong religious beliefs, when their parents don't. Religion is not always inherited.
Also, I completely agree that faith and religion has caused a lot of war and conflict in the world. But it has also caused a lot of good. I'll focus on Christians here, because that's what I know. Hospitals, universities and all different types of charities have been started by Christians because of their faith. When you take seriously the command to love others, it can lead to all types of good. The problem is that many people don't take that command seriously enough.
Samaritan
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i worded that wrong...oops i meant that it is most often inherited. and about all the good things Christianity does why can't we do all those things in the name of something a little more tangible
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Comment by samaritan
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Yes, I have very strong faith. The fact that my picture is a cross should probably give that away. Also, I have a blog on Christian faith. My life is very much centred on my life and it's a very important part of it.
Now in terms of why can't we do good things in the name of something else? Well for one, a lot of good things are done by people who don't have any religious beliefs at all. But secondly, to ask why we don't do those good things in the name of something else is the same as saying why don't we do evil in the name of something else? The fact remains is that religion often motivates people to do good. That's why they do it. But again - it often motivates them to do bad as well.
Now I like to think that I would be a pretty nice person whether I was religious or not. I care about people. But my faith does motivate me even more to do the good that I can. Also, I think (and I have a feeling some people will disagree with me here) that many of our ideas of what constitutes 'doing good' have been shaped by religious belief.
I guess the main point I'm saying here is, yes, religion often motivates people to do the wrong thing. But it also motivates people to do the right thing. And we need to look at both sides of it. It's a problem for Christians as well. I know Christians who only look at the good Christians have done and not the bad. They say, if there was no belief in God, then nothing good would be done and the world would be a horrible place. That's just not true. Christians do terrible things. Christians do good things. And I think all religions have this capacity to do good or bad.
Samaritan
Comment by Kleonaptra
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Here's another,
Comment by Someone
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Charity is huge in Islam... for example, every year where I lived they had Idul Adah (not sure on the spelling), where the well off would buy animals (goats, cows), and on the day they would be slaughtered, with all the meat going to feed the poor.
Comment by RubySoho
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I agree that religious belief is inherited more often than not. Show me the child at seven and I'll show you the man and all that. In regards to yours and Samaritan's conversation, I think people do good things because that is the type of people they are.I don't think we need to do anything in t he name of anything, tangible or otherwise. Good deeds should just stand on their own.
Hi Lila,
I will admit, I did get a little lost there! Originators...base lizard race energies? I have not heard these terms before....
But essentially, I reject the notion of karma and reincarnation. Especially if that involves being punished in this life for something I supposedly did i the last. I would assume that means that those children in Africa that Attenborough speaks of, who have parasitic worms literally eat out their eyeballs are actually to blame for their horrendous misfortune? For something they have absolutely no recollection of? That just seems far too unreasonable to me.
But like Kleo, I do love that quote from Epicurus, reminds me of a similar quote from one of my favs, Mark Twain,
Hi Kleo, I do think good can exist without what we call evil. we probably just wouldn't feel the need to call it such. Essentially these terms are just words we give to certain types of human behaviours. Who is that quote by?
Hi Someone,
I was raised Muslim and every year my relatives in Lebanon would send a video showing exactly what you described. Its called Eid al-Fitr. It's the celebration at the end of Ramadan, literally translated as 'breaking the fast'. Actually those videos are one of the things that compelled me to become a vegetarian. I mean, I applaud the sentiment but that poor cow. And the blood, the blood!
Seriously though, you are right, Islam does place a lot of onus on helping out those who are less fortunate than yourself. But I don't think that makes up for all the negative things that go along with it. And looking after each other is something that we should do regardless of whether the big man in the sky says we should or not.
Comment by Someone
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And I'm sorry to say that if everyone just believed in this life, then most would fend only for themselves... I think religion is a good way of making (at least some) people try to live good lives.
Now I'm not religious, but I don't disagree with religion. I figure everyone has a right to believe what they want.
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The trouble with that though is that the child will grow into an adult who will marry and have another gaggle of kids because some ponced up pontif now tells them not to use condoms or because Islam doesn*t allow women rights no matter what.
But hey, don*t get me started, because I have hope and I can only have that if I have some faith that the good guys will come and axe the bad guys pretty soon, from space ships, interdimensional caverns, time warps, I don*t care where but most of the trouble on earth today is caused by the lizard races who have an agenda to enslave humans, plain and simple. try Z. Stitchen*s 12th Planet to get a handle on another perspective bigger than the one you have.
There is a bigger picture out there than just rage against the machine.
Lilla . .
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for the compliment, i will have to stop in and check out some of your work
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And the Quote is from the big man himself. Satan.
Comment by RubySoho
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Sorry, you are right i totally got my religious festivals mixed up. But I find your choice of words curious ie religion is needed to keep people in line. That's actually one of, if not THE, biggest problem I have with religion - it is used to keep people in line. That's no way to live. Also, contrary to your statement, studies find that there tend to be higher rates of violent crime in areas with a high degree of religiosity, such as the Southern states of the USA. Conversely countries with a low degree of religious adherence tend to be much more peaceful, Sweden, Denmark etc. I will chase up some links and references for you shortly.
Hi Lila,
I don't know where you get the impression I am trying to "anilihate" you, I am simply telling you my opinion as you told me yours. I'm not raging against any machine, but I am expressing my view that, the world as it exists, precludes me from believing in any god, whether it be a Christian, Pagan, Hindu or any other god of any of the multitudes of religions that have risen and fallen over the years.
Hi Morgan,
When did my blog turn into your fan club page?
Hi Kleo,
I get what you are saying, but my point isn't that I want a world where nothing bad happens,or even think it is possible, only that I don't think a world such as ours is a good indication of the existence of a supreme, omnipotent being. I don't desire the mythological Garden of Eden. A world without awareness and knowledge? No thanks. That's the reason they were thrown out after all- because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. I say gimme more. I also say that makes Eve my hero. (Or it would if she had actually existed).
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If god loves us all he has a funny way of showing it, just like most of parents in the real world who force there spawn to share there same warped world views......not that I believe in the Big kahuna just the power that others perceive he has.
Comment by samaritan
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I get the impression that Ruby is willing to discuss the issue. Admittedly, she has firm views that will not be budged. But then again, on the issue of whether God exists or not, so do I. So do many of us.
I think willingness to discuss an issue does not have to mean being open to have your views changed. It simply means being prepared to listen to opposite point of views. And I think Ruby does this very well. I have always found her willing to listen to what I have to say, even when she doesn't agree with it.
Samaritan
Comment by RubySoho
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I think that's what Epicurus was getting at.
Hi Samaritan,
Thank you! It took many years for me to arrive where i am in in relation to how I feel about the issue of God. i had a religious upbringing, switched religions as a teenager, lost faith at 20 and came to the conclusion that God cannot possibly exist at the the age of about 27. So yeah, it's unlikely my views will be now be suddenly changed by an online exchange on a blog. But I do enjoy discussing this issue with people such as yourself who don't view my opinions as a threat nor see them as a reason to get angry.
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sometimes the less said, the better.
Someone,
this is an excellent article which discusses the relationship between religiosity and crime rates. The results may surprise you!
Is Faith Good For Us?
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So both to me leave me more than a little confused. Are they theories that we want to, or need to, believe?
None of us really know so we can hardly condemn a person for believing or even disbelieving. It's own our decision and no-one else's.
Very interesting and thought provoking post, Ruby.
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. . .its the utter cold dismissiveness of those with different opinions or ones that Ruby does not fully comprehend that I find abrasive. They do not exactly say to me, Aliens? could you explain more I am curious . . but more : if you don*t agree with me, then please move along you lunatic.
However, I am willing to discuss anything openly and would hate to be misunderstood yet again by those who would muddy the waters for whatever reason. You Samaritan are reasonable, no doubts and so in response to your energy, I am able to respond to your genuine open comment
. . .and interest in all things religious and non religious, I would ask all atheists and you Ruby the one question I cannot understand about Atheism and that is;
If a higher power than us (let*s say God for arguments sake for want of another word, however we could call it Criossant or something silly), and that the great Criossant who allows good and bad does not exist. We are the only creators and yet still allow bad things to happen despite our inner most wanting only good things to happen.
And in doing so without the great Criossant in the sky watching over us, we are born, a freak of nature, we live and then we die, only to become worm fodder, nothing gained, no cycles, no karma, no recycling, no meaning, no alien agenda, no nothing, only something peculiar from Darwins evolutionary grab bag of mutating DNA : Lost in time and lost in space and probably meaning (to quote that rather interesting song). But wasnt that part of the plan of those who perpetuated the divison in the first place. The Fall we hear so much about?
Mostly then with no soul, (that is what God owns) where on earth, or in the sky, does an Atheist draw their hope from when the criossant lets these bad things happen and we feel like we cannot go on?
That*s the bit I can*t get my head around . . not that I believe in everything written in the Bible mind, because that to me is mostly fiction if the subtle levels are not understood, agreed and because it has been meddled with by the hand of man, way too much for my liking. I can no longer consider it accurate or authentic, with no real practical advice on how to achieve what it claims. Perhaps it is true as those who have taken a lifetime to study it claim, you do have to dig deeper to find that out, but there are qwuicker ways to the truths of reality, albeit usually based on some religious text. However, considering that much of the New testiment was written by conquering Romans, perhaps that was the point of it in the first place and the great criossants mission. Divide and conquer or each to find their own way?
So with this in mind, what I am asking too I guess, is what is an Atheist saying (like my friend and I have talked a bit about this without arguing) ; Its not the criossant that bothers me, just the bible and all that rubbish in it?
Whatever, I am digressing again, the point was, where do Atheists draw their faith (in better things to come) and (mainly) hope from?
Lilla . .
Comment by RubySoho
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Unfortunately Lilla, since the very beginnings of our history the human race has done the most despicable things to each other. And I really don't see that coming to any end any time soon.
In short I don't have 'faith' that there are better things to come. I do however believe that there are many people out there tirelessly working to make this a better world. And all i can do is hope that they succeed in improving the lives of some people, for I know it is impossible to improve the lives of all of us.
in my honest opinion, I think the world will carry on much as it always has, with war and torture and despair living side by side with wealth and fame and happiness, until we either kill each other off or we get pulverised by an errant asteroid.
This doesn't leave me as empty as you may think. It doesn't lessen my desire to see a better world or stop me from supporting those organisations that I know are working for human rights and the environment. It doesn't lessen my determination to see a more progressive world when I die than the one I was born into. But it does stop me from accepting injustice as 'god's will' and it does stop me from accepting anything but the best that I can get out of this life.
I won't wait until i die for my reward for I know there will not be one. I am just going to get the most I can out of this one and only life I have been given.
Comment by Lilla
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It makes a lot of sense and perhaps if more people took what they had now and actually did something ~ as you say ~ prhaps it would be a better world.
It is good to know that at least an Atheist envisages a better one, that is what my friend says she does too. By all intense purposes that is more importnat than many realise, as is action itself.
Whilst living in India I saw so much apathy in people who thought their lot was to remain poor (from karma) and that they would do more in the next life. But I am not judging it because when such poverty is that crushing, I can also see (so clearly) the need to cling to something intangiable to find the hope and will to go on and to stop the insanity from taking a hold.
Such an interesting topic with so many possibilities and I do like anything that keeps us on the ground, atheism included. I have a tendancy to fly off, not that I see that as a failing as there are many truths written on the wind too.
Thank you for helping me to understand a little more.
Lilla ..
Comment by Morgan Bell
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hi Lilla,
i know you are a trekkie too so this will probably make sense to you . . .
my dad (an atheist too) always says the human mission should be having society and technology progress to a point where we are as elvolved as the characters on The Enterprise . . . we should be exploring the galxy and beyond for a home for our descendents so when our sun burns out the human race can survive
i think our individual time on earth is finite and our purposes is improving things for the next generation
the purpose of being alive is simple to enjoy being alive, and to contribute to the lives of others
i dont need some supervisor in the sky weilding a big stick to get me to act constructively, i am motivated to make a difference while i am here because i know i wont be here for long
Comment by samaritan
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I love that philosophy. I pretty much think exactly the same thing.
Lilla:
I agree. And maybe if we all started to realise that many of us want the same things, we want to make the world a better place, then we could actually get on with the job of doing it. I think the world would start to be a better place if we forgot about proving who's right or wrong on the issue of whether God exists and, if he does exist, whose concept of God is closes to the truth, and started focusing on what we all want and how we want to make the world a better place. Because I think in terms of what we want to achieve, there are a lot of places where many people could agree.
Morgan:
It's interesting to think about motive when we think about doing the right thing. Sometimes I think the atheist's motivation is more pure, because they are not doing it for any kind of reward, simply because it is the right thing to do. And from a theological point of view, I really do wonder how God sees an atheist who does the right thing - just because - compared to a Christian who doesn't really want to do the right thing, but does it because they want to be 'rewarded'.
Samaritan
Comment by Lilla
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Thank you for taking the effort to put it into one of the contexts I do relate to easily, although not the only one, because no system is complete and I do have issues with the Federation too. Sometimes I feel that they take it upon themselves to only ever see what their objective is as the only way forward regardless and find myself disagreeing with it, even with the prime directive in play, it has sometimes proven to be much a case of stepping over the line, hasn*t it? (Perhaps thats why I like Trek so much, it shows its own weakness as well as its strengths) .. however, as I was saying, sometimes I feel that the individual crew members are not allowed enough time to sort out their problems either without everyone interfering, although Sisko seems more lenient in this department than either Janeway or Picard, certainly not Mr Kirk. But hey, that*s just me, I was bought up under the stairs like Harry Potter and learned to keep things to myself and prefer them that way too. But the point is this, it is in going boldly and overcoming our differences that we become stronger as individuals, races and species, where our beliefs do not matter when issues of survival are in play, yet no one threatens the Federation (until the Dominion and Borg); yet how many worlds do the Federation conquer? Albeit, for the mutual benefit of safety and survival of them all when alied. Agreed. But I am digressing again . . (. . so what*s new?)
the purpose of being alive is simple to enjoy being alive, and to contribute to the lives of others
I love this thinking and have to agree wholeheartedly. Life is a gift and it is mine to make the most of. Agreed. That is what I love most about trek too, how the races intermix and find the ultimate truths : especially the super religious, gentle race of B*jorans and the Harsh warlike Cardasians, most of all and usually through the old way of a common enemy. Not to mention the mercenary Romulans, the emotionless Vulcans (who are not fully in control I reckon) . . and the seemingly barbaric Klingons who*s code of honour is not to believed in its fundamentalism. Reminds me so much of orble and my local community, some have Gods, some don*t. Some would argue that Epicurus was mad, toehr his sanity.
This is very in line with my own beliefs again Morgan, and those of every major religion on the planet, I find that really ironic too. I too have a constant focus on my own impermanence, and also know that as long as I do my utmost best I am okay, because happiness is what happens when my thinking and my actions are in line with one another. I don*t need someone to tell me that. But what if I do become addicted to a substance say (as I have in the past) and suddenly my happiness depends on that substance and not in line with my utmost, or the group consciousness around me on the Enterprise. Only the illusion of said same? Am I still doing the best and making the best possible contribution to the lives of others?
Herein lies the realms of religion and Ethics I guess and the vault to the bigger picture or a Federation code of ethics, and again my confusion because even Atheists draw from the ten commandments, no?
A particular episode comes to mind : On DS9 Dr Bashir had a chance to cure a small band of breakaway Jem Hadar of their addiction to the white powder, but O*Brien (the idiot) felt it wasn*t right and destroyed the means Bashir had invented whilst they were being held captive by this small band on some planet. The thing was that if Bashir had succeeded all the Jem Hadar may have been able to overcome their addictions and then they never would have started the Dominion war for the Dominion, they would have gone, *Na! Not today shapeshifter.*
Both O*Brien and Bashir thought they were doing the right thing, contributing to the cause. Ethically and morally I felt O*Brien was wrong, very wrong. Which brings me to the point of the big stick in the sky and what they were trying to achieve by inventing it perhaps .. as a guideline for a bunch of displaced Jews wandering around the desert??
I think it failed if we look at all the wars it has caused, and man made, as an Atheist would rightly say, but where does an Atheist draw his Code of Conduct from if not from the Federation guidelines.*
I don*t know *chuckle* probably least of all . . I am a seeker, boldy going . . I s*pose, along the greatest of missions possible, life on earth, a clairvoyant who can see the dearly departed and hear them sometimes and that can really change your perspective too . . I sincerely appreciated your comment.
Thank you.
PS My father was an atheist too *chuckle* and my mother was a staunch catholic. You can imagine the conversation at our dinner table, can*t you? I guess they taught me well in what not to be in both extremes, that*s for sure . . I owe them
Samaritan,
I think the world would start to be a better place if we forgot about proving who's right or wrong on the issue of whether God exists and, if he does exist, whose concept of God is closes to the truth, and started focusing on what we all want and how we want to make the world a better place.
Agreed, and that is perhaps another really salient point. To me, so many people seem to want to clear that with me first. What do I believe? Is God real or not and if so, am I for or against? Black or white, yellow or Red.. It seems people screen this from you BEFORE they want to commit to *getting on with it* and that is what frustrates me most, because I am already getting on with it, regardless of what anyone thinks or what I believe ~ again as Morgan says a common code of ethics for us all. And usually without judgement, well on my part anyway. I certainly don*t care whether a person is gay, or straight, or tall or short, thin or fat, religious or atheist, or whatever to have to be a part of my world, and that is what I find hardest in these discussions of exactly these issues; because whilst they exist (on the periphery) the real problems go unheeded and the baby gets thrown out with the bath water, whilst the real bad guys get away with the murder.
Again, I am left to quote a religious text, but here it is in black and white.
Divide and conquer is an old truth, wherever it originated and yet our strength is in overcoming that very division and learning to all get along, as I see it, that makes us great as a species.
Thank you for taking the time to explain further .
Lilla ..
Comment by Anonymous
About god existence, if god does really exists, why is god hiding from us? is god so ashamed of creating mankind?
As for the evil/goodnes, THEY are the ones who canīt exists without each other, if there's good, there must be evil, just the same as where there's light, there must be also shadow, and where there's life, there must also be death, relligion can be without god, the same way god could be without relligion, personally, i don't think all the killing done in the name of god is something to be proud of
In the parent children analogy, being parent to many many children, would you stand and watch how your kids kill each other? not hurt, but kill, extinguish that "spark" of life that will not repeat because everyone has each their own free will...
"free will" is the excuse the humans made up for god inability to act, in almost all relligions, in the very end, god will impose anyway, so what's god waiting? is he waiting us humans to keep repeating this foolishness endlessly? i dont think god exists because if goodness is to exist, so must evilness, and therefore god cannot stop evilness because by doing so, would deny his/her/its very own existence being god a goodness creature.
Relligions says their reason to be is to prevent us of doing wrong (ask all those poor people executed by the inquisition), but they, being created by humans can be, and are wrong, we don't need someone to tell us we are good or wrong, we can tell, we are not that foolish.
So long as humans who believe in god exists, may god exist as well, because god is the word for the things humans couldnīt explain, say the god of thunfder, they didnt know why the thunder and lightning existed, they made up a god for it, why did it rained? they didnt know, so they made up a god for that, and so on and on, relligions evolved and in order to reduce the amount of work of administration of the gods, they reduced to fewer and fewer and so on, some still remain, some were reduced to one god, we even joke about that: my god is better than yours, mine can do it all alone, yours need assistance)
Atheists (like me) are waiting to be proven wrong, because by being so, mankind would still benefit, and if we still get to go to hell (if it exists) it would still be joyjous because folly would cease to be. Maybe mankind will someday discover god, maybe we will prove god never existed and that all relligions were wrong, in the mean time, lets try to live to the fullest, because it has not been proven that we will live ever again (and dont give me that crap of the writings, because they were written by mankind regardless of the 'holy' inspiration).
Maybe, and only maybe, we all are god, who knows, it may be true... or it may not...
P.S. regarding the quote, meanwhile god's existence hasn't been proved, god cannot be good or evil, god cannot be nothing because god doesnīt exist, when we prove god's existence, we can call him whatever we like, meanwhile, nothing