RubySoho
Winston
Holy Cow! Is It A Man Or A Bull?
April 2nd 2008 00:31
From this...
In a move that has the Catholic Church fuming and is sure to get American pro-life groups in a tither, researchers at the UK’s Newcastle University have created part-human part-animal hybrid embryos.
In keeping with its long history of resisting any sort of scientific advancement the Catholic Church has denounced the research as “monstrous experiments of Frankenstein proportions”.
But the scientists have defended their experiment claiming it is vital research that could lead to a better understanding of diseases such as Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, diabetes and stroke. The team injected human sperm into cow ovaries and destroyed the resulting embryos after three days. They claimed they could not use human ovaries as human donors are in too short a supply. In future experiments scientists hope to extract the stem cells from the hybrid embryos.
Newcastle University’s Professor John Burn defended the research in the wake of the scathing attack from the Church saying “this is a process in a dish, and we are dealing with a clump of cells which would never go on to develop. It's a laboratory process and these embryos would never be implanted into anyone”.
Did you see that people? “A clump of cells”. Yes that’s right, a scientist has referred to an embryo as “a clump of cells”, not a baby, not a person, but a “clump of cells”.
The Church isn’t buying it though. It has condemned new legislation, due to be debated in British Parliament next month, which will officially allow such creation of hybrid embryos for stem cell research with the Cardinal Keith O’Brien Archbishop of Edinburgh and St Andrews’ saying "It is difficult to imagine a single piece of legislation which more comprehensively attacks the sanctity and dignity of human life than this particular bill."
I can. And I would like to know just where the Cardinal O’Brien and the rest of the Catholic Church were when the bill approving the Iraq war was passed through American Congress.
Although the idea of mixing human sperm with a cow ovary made me queasy initially, I am with the scientists on this one. The scientific community has long maintained that stem cells are the most viable method for researching human diseases. Furthermore, the hybrid embryos would not be allowed to develop beyond the 14 day period when they are still less than the size of a pin head.
It's not as if we are going to have cow/human mongrels roaming the streets. We should also keep in mind that IVF was greeted with the same outcry when it was first developed in the 1970s. I think that once we get used to this idea, we will appreciate the benefits it could bring. And like IVF, which has brought joy to many couples who would otherwise remain childless, when people's loved ones are cured or at least have their suffering diminished by this research, then we will truly appreciate the miracles science can bring.
What do you think guys? Should the UK Parliament pass this bill? Is this a step forward in understanding and treatment of disease or are we slapping ‘God’ in the face?
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Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Im all for stem cell and cloning research - its become obvious that cloning doesnt work the way we thought it would - and Im keen to have them grow me a new heart when this one kicks it. I couldnt cope with a mechanical valve like my brother has - it ticks.
But what can be the purpose of extracting cells that are mixed with animals? We are the top of the food chain, the pinnacle of evolution, its like a step back to incorporate animal cells. I mean sure, yeah, it would be fun to be part cat, but we're just going into the realms of comic books there.
I think its bound to come into ruin. Havnt comic books and hollywood movies taught these guys anything?
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
yeah, i was being a bit sarcastic with the God comment. Just pointing out how quick the Church is to poke its business into science but resenting it when science reverses the favour.
It is a bit odd, I guess, but like the scientists said, in the early stages, the embryo is just a clump of cells. Its a scientific process. Not quite the island of Dr Moreau.
I'm no scientists so I don't know if mixing humans and cows is going to help but the fact they are even doing it means they obviously think it can.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Im not a scientist either - but generally, dont they try things to see if they can? Then make up pretty excuses as to why?
Thats just my opinion. Im sure at least one white coat is having a Dr Moreau fantasy!
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
anyway, I'm ALL FOR IT!! Of course, stem cell research is objected to, by vested interest groups and those who are financially against people with chronic illness finding a way to stop using medicine!
"BiG Pharma" has long tentacles.
However, I think it would be good to go full term, with the cow/man thang...if were a dairy farmer!
Because, then I could discuss with the cows how they were feeling, how much milk they think they have 'on-board', what is the hay like, "do you like the new bull", and then, best of all, you could have a self serve moo-man-cow milker machine, where they stroll up to when ready to get pumped, and wash their own udders!
Sounds like paradise to me...if I was a farmer!
I do remember reading, years ago, the Chinese were experimenting with gorillas and men, trying to create a semi-human that could take orders and work long hours in the field....the red Army shot them all, the alleged man/apes and the scientists!
If that was true, how bizarre that China, of all places, felt the need for more workers!!
cheers and support the stem cell movement!
fog
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I agree. I'm all for it too.
Do you have any links to that report about the Chinese man-apes? To the best of my knowledge, interspecies procreation is impossible. The embryo will spontaneously abort, except for mules which are always sterile.
I'd love to read about those experiments.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
At any rate, I wasn't clear on exactly what was going on at Newcastle, so I went looking. I found an article on news.scotsman.com that has some good info. Here's a snippet:
Researchers want to use animal eggs because of the shortage of human eggs. They would remove the nucleus of the animal cell and replace it with a nucleus taken from a human cell. It can then grow and divide like a normal embryo, generating stem cells that can be harvested by scientists. The stem cells can become almost any type of cell within the body and it might be possible to use them to create a "repair kit" for humans.
Professor Stephen Minger is one of many high-profile scientists who accuse the Catholic church of misleading the public over the nature of the research.
Yesterday, he said: "Where the Church has it wrong is in thinking we are mixing human and animal cells together, creating something that is a true hybrid.
"But what we are doing in the process of doing this inter-species work – which is referred to by scientists as using 'admixed embryos' – is physically removing the nucleus from the cow egg, which completely removes the genetic and species identity, so it is essentially no longer a cow egg.
"There are cow versions of proteins and some mitochondria (which provide the cells with energy), but as the cell lines expand over time, those proteins will be exclusively replaced with human proteins and the mitochondria will become predominantly human."
So, clearly, the researchers have some well-defined goals in mind. Plus, they have taken pains to eliminate the possibility of any true "hybridization" or anything of that sort. And yet we have people crying 'Frankenstein' in the most alarmist fashion imaginable. Typical.
In the 50's, nuclear energy was going to make monsters. Now, with nuclear energy fairly well understood, people have migrated their irrational fears over to genetics. It seems the sky must always be falling somewhere.
I object to the Church's "moral" stance that using embryonic research is wrong, but that leaving potential cures on the shelf and allowing people to die is right. If that isn't warped logic, I'm not sure what is.
Good post, thanks for highlighting this story.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Sorry, I was a bit light on the details. Sometimes I worry about boring people so I try to keep the posts short. Is that bad? Should I go into more detail?
But I'm glad I piqued your interest enough for you to do your own research.
Thanks for breaking down the process so reasonably too. Not that the Church will care about that. Was it St Augustine or Martin Luther that said "reason is the Christian's greatest enemy?"
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
It was enough to bring it to people's attention. It piqued my curiosity enough to make me investigate further, at any rate.
I think it was Luther who said that quote, but I would have to double check to be sure. I think the sentiment sums up a lot of people's attitudes rather nicely (and not just about religion, incidentally).
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
so this extra information from winston proves that its not really cross-species breeding . . . the cow egg shell is little more than a vessel, like a cd player where the human nucleus is the cd being inserted to be played (crass analogy i know)
humans have been genetically seperate from other animal species for too long to ever be able to be compatible for cross species interbreeding . . . the last known hybrids homo sapiens had were with neandethals over 30,000 years ago before they became extinct, within 700,000 years of our two species becoming genetically distint from each other . . . our nearest living genetic species match is the chimpanzee which we became genetically distinct from 7 million years ago, we are not compatible to breed
so this may be a sensational headline in the media but scientifically the whole cow/man hybrid thing is highly improbable . . . this is complex science that i dont think you will find explained in any version of the bible
science is our only real saviour from disease and disability . . . i have every faith that scientists work tirelessly and ethically and that we will one day cure cancer and AIDS and spinal injury and heart and brain diseases . . . leave the science to the scientists and the guilt to the church
excellent post ruby (as always)
Comment by Cibbuano
20/20 Filmsight
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Techbreak
My issue with this process is that it doesn't seem as viable an option as generating stem cells from a person's own bone marrow - hasn't that been done recently?
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Thanks Morgan, I really should have gone into more detail...confound you all with your insatiable greed for knowledge! I promise never to make a half-arsed post again...
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Ruby, dont make promises you can keep! Im sure half assed posts will happen dspite best efforts...
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
it was just focussing on the philosophical and moral angle rather than getting bogged down in the scientific detail . . . sometimes the best blogs are the ones that are open-ended and require the reader to reseach the matter and encourage extra info in the comments
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
no links to the "man-ape" story, I read it in a Sydney daily newspaper, many years before the internet I am sorry to say!
All I remember about it is, that it was unsubstantiated for a start, so a 'rumour', or heresay second hand, came out of China at the time.
It was interesting that it was reported at all, however, exactly what was going on in the lab remains unknown.
What was talked about in China, that scientists had been removed from a lab, and the objects of their research killed.
The idea of a man-beast was actually considered in an open discussion in China! Maybe that is how the two things got entwined?
However, no one knows what came of all that, and as we know, unless there is something being kept
secret, we cannot do such things as cross specie breeding...although, tell that to a mule! hehe!
cheers
fog
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
humans (homo sapiens) do not have any other animals in their genus, we are in the same sub-family as chimpanzees and gorillas
horses, donkeys and zebras are all from the same sub-family and genus
CLICKHERE for list of hybrid crossbreeds on wiki
Comment by Louie
Climate Forum
Climate Red
randomthoughts
Phil's Wellness Tips
queasy is an understatement........ I have spoodles as my pets, cross between cocker spaniel and a poodle, so why should humans be immne....hmmmmm need to give that some more thought
cool post