RubySoho
Winston
Israel Slaps Peace (And The Palestinians) In The Face…Again.
June 5th 2008 14:40
Israeli PM Ehud Olmert...denies allegations of corruption.
Even as the allegations of corruption against the Israeli PM Ehud Olmert continue to rock the government Olmert took time out from evading police investigator’s questions to announce that Israel was planning the construction of 900 new settler homes in East Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is part of the Occupied Territories that Israel seized in the 1967 six-day war and its continued occupation is considered illegal under international law.
From BBC NEWS:
Israel plans more settler homes
"The Israeli government has announced plans to build nearly 900 new housing units in a part of East Jerusalem that is considered occupied territory.
The contentious move comes amid the ongoing political battle swirling around Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who is accused of corruption.
Mr Olmert's cabinet met for the first time since Defence Minister Ehud Barak said it was time for him to step down.
An Israeli official said Mr Olmert was getting on with government business.
The prime minister, he said, was keeping his cards close to his chest and did not discuss his future with his colleagues during the meeting.
Mr Olmert remained convinced he was innocent of the accusations that relate to his time as mayor of Jerusalem, the official said.
Districts redrawn
On Monday, the prime minister will have one of his regular meetings with the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, in an attempt to push forward peace talks.
Those talks will take place in the wake of the new housing announcement.
The Palestinian Authority has condemned the news of more settlement building on occupied territory.
The Israeli government insists that any final peace deal will see these districts redrawn inside the Israeli border.
In addition to Mr Barak's call for him to step aside, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said that the Kadima Party, to which both she and Mr Olmert belong, should hold new leadership elections."
Now anyone who knows anything about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict will know how deeply the issue of settlement in the West Bank cuts into the heart of the Palestinian populace. As long as Israel continues to construct and encourage settlements in the Occupied Territories- Palestinian land, where their oft promised but never delivered State is supposedly destined to be created -it makes all of Israel’s rhetoric about seeking a peace deal ring empty.
On March 9 Israel had already announced it was approving the building of 750 new settler homes in the West Bank. That’s 1650 homes planned in the space of three months. Add this to the 400 000 settlers already living in the Occupied Territories and it begins to give one the impression that Israel does not plan on withdrawing from the West Bank any time soon.
And what a great way for Mr Olmert to deflect the attention away from his alleged shady behaviour (accepting bribes), whilst mayor of Jerusalem. “Getting on with business”, otherwise known as ensuring there will never be a Palestinian State. So much for the two-state solution.
This latest announcement on the part of the Israeli government reaffirms my own and many others suspicions, namely that Israel does not want peace.
Let me repeat: Israel does not want peace.
Ruby
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Comment by Louie
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As much as I respect you I do have to disagree with this statement, only slightly. i think they want peace, just on their terms.
cheers
Comment by KylieW
Celebrity Obsession
Comment by RubySoho
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Israel does not want a reasonable peace based on compromise and respect for the Palestinians. Israel believes it is her way or the highway?
Comment by Louie
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unfortunately you have nailed it.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Comment by tlcorbin
So, who is slapping whom in the face?
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
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Besides which, this is rather off topic, since my post was on the settlements that Israel has just approved.
What are your opinions on that?
Comment by tlcorbin
Foolishly, I thought that the USA and Israel wielded the power in the region: not. We've all been duped by cunning adversaries who are fully willing to sacrifice their neighbors, families and friends to serve their agenda and do so in the name of god and misguided modern day prophets.
Consider what I've said. If the USA invested itself in this area for the region's oil and it's wealth-it is a fools venture, we are in financial straights; follow the money like I have been for years. We defeated communism fiscally, an revolutionary economic style of warfare; enemies have been watching and learning and are applying what they've learned. And are funding the effort with money from the US.
Who is spending lavishly on artificial islands and mansions, buying influence by donating huge sums of money for jihad, madras's: the Saudis and Iranians.
If we're pillaging the region, why have my taxes tripled, my fuel and food costs have gone out of sight-and my great great grand children are strapped with billions of dollars of future trade debt?
Sometimes myopic vision is your worst enemy Ruby, you can learn to look beyond the obvious and see the heart of truth. So, who has really slapped whom in the face.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
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Last time I checked it was Israel who was occupying the West Bank, not Saudi Arabia or Iran. Honestly, how irrelevant can you get?
Comment by tlcorbin
You're a testament to a rigid political agenda Ruby; working hard on Orble to turn supporters of an Israeli - Palestinian peace accord away from negotiations. You're a shill for a cause whose faith you don't even believe in, that makes you a fraud.
Ruby the shining shill and fraud- hater of all things Israeli, hater of viable fetuses, hater of open debate, hater of her fathers faith, hater of Israeli Arabs, hater of Israeli Jews. Wow, you're just hateful. Well go ahead, wallow in it, revel in it, you wear your fathers scarlet brand of rejection well and I understand how hate hides it from your eyes, if not the worlds.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Comment by tlcorbin
She is a drama queen with an agenda, and you need to dam the orifice that allows the air flowing up your ass to vent through your mouth. And use a mouthwash poo breath.
Follow her trail, you of enormous hedonistic secular faith, and view with what's left of your superior intellect to sort out the truth for yourself; I'm sure you are the bastion of impartiality around here.
BTW, the next time you stick your head up your own ass, use a condom: see these are a little more vitriolic, and should provide sufficient proof that I wasn't attacking her full on.
She is exactly what I have described her to be.
You are best described as an Ostrich, and therefore easily led, because critical thinking is not possible with your ass taking air samples.
Again, follow the money in the region and follow the influence peddling. There is no immediate or long term win for Israel or for the USA by shunning peace. Who is really benefitting from the turmoil?
If I were president, to settle down the region, I'd proffer a Glow or no Glow resolution: peace or destruction. It'd save lives in the long run.
Comment by RubySoho
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And do you think you can answer my question? What do you think of these illegal settlements in the West Bank?
Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by tlcorbin
To the victor goes the spoils of war: what illegal settlement on the West Bank?
Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by tlcorbin
You are a hate peddler miss and I won't let up until you stop serving up single faceted political campaigns, when open discussions are proffered up, I'll involve myself to learn and to share ideas in that arena.
Perhaps you'd serve your political agenda best with a closed blog, something minuscule and private, with limited membership.
The matter you're discussing herein is of paramount importance to me and you never once said jews, non arabs, americans, alaskans, free thinker or ravens aren't invited to participate.
That would have been honest and forthright.
Comment by RubySoho
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Come back when you are prepared to engage in actual conversation.
Comment by Jeff Musall
At the risk of being called an ostrich, I will join Ruby in saying "fuck off."
Comment by tlcorbin
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You're my inspiration ya foul mouthed gem. Let's quarrel over this for a while. Then maybe we can get back to actually engaging in discourse about real issues.
Remember, fight fairly, no politics-only gender bashing is allowed.
Raven
Comment by tlcorbin
Comment by RubySoho
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Please don't abuse people on my blog. It is uncalled for and insulting to everyone -including yourself.
Comment by tlcorbin
To set the stage, I posted a comment prefacing my perspective, an aside that is relevant to my argument and was for that, excoriated. For what, not going along with group think? That's guaranteed to irk me.
The Oregonian Ostrich jumped in with his inane crap and was nipped for not paying attention to his own business and you for only wanting to allow comments from the amen choir.
You have first hand experience dealing with me, I will examine and probe even the ridiculous to get at the heart of a matter. As sensitive and volatile an issue as this is, it deserves nothing less than a carefully laid out presentation and that takes some effort and time.
However, you've finally impressed upon me that this was a post strictly for ideologues positing political propaganda and as such, it reeks.
Your thinly veiled political leanings are annoying.
Comment by RubySoho
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Ruby the shining shill and fraud- hater of all things Israeli, hater of viable fetuses, hater of open debate, hater of her fathers faith, hater of Israeli Arabs, hater of Israeli Jews. Wow, you're just hateful. Well go ahead, wallow in it, revel in it, you wear your fathers scarlet brand of rejection well and I understand how hate hides it from your eyes, if not the worlds.
She is a drama queen with an agenda, and you need to dam the orifice that allows the air flowing up your ass to vent through your mouth. And use a mouthwash poo breath.
Those are the two shining examples and I'm not even going to bother quoting anymore.
If you cannot tell the difference between disagreement and outright abuse then I don't want you here. There is no point.
Comment by tlcorbin
Comment by Jeff Musall
Comment by tlcorbin
I say, hahahaha . . .
Here, play with a concept you can grasp.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Now we've progressed to the point of trading 5th grade insults and shouting matches on the site that Ruby inherited from me. Not exactly what I had in mind. This was meant to be someplace to consider the ramifications of interesting issues, and to encourage civil debate. Like with so many other Orble sites lately, it's just another pissing contest here now. Great. Getting pretty old pretty fast.
You guys want to talk about peace in the middle east? Jesus, how about peace between jackasses with Internet access and a desire to trade ideas? If we can't manage that, then peace in the middle east is probably a bit out of our reach, eh?
Lord knows what sort of reply I'm opening myself up for here. At the very least I'll probably be called naive. So be it. It's all I have to say at this point.
Comment by tlcorbin
This is an issue that I care deeply about and do want to raise questions about the base issue, but I won't stand for anyone shoving an agenda up my nose.
And pinheads that try to force every commenter into a structured response system is going to find themselves bumping heads with me.
Well said.
Raven
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Everyone just needs to have a cookie and relax, read a book.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Comment by tlcorbin
Even now, one of them is nipping at my ankles . . .
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Seriously, there are posts lately where things get so off track and so nasty that the original intent of the post is completely lost in a sea of bile. What's the point? We could all just stop writing posts in general, and devote out time more fully to developing our repertoire of insults. That would save time.
I would suggest that if you guys still want to debate this Israeli/Palestine issue, then you need to give yourselves a do-over and start again. If the gulf is too wide and a debate isn't possible, drop it. Everything else is just noise.
Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter. We're all adults, and you guys are free to engage each other however you want. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, but I had to get some of the frustration I've felt reading this stuff lately off my chest.
Comment by tlcorbin
If my point couldn't be made in open and fair debate, I have illustrated it by drawing out the three of you.
Even the most treacherous of despots will listen with feigned intensity before casting the author of dissenting views into chains and neither of these two bloggers were willing to offer that modicum of courtesy.
Thank you for helping me illustrate my point: an outside force can and often does manipulate emotions between Palestinians and Israelis, just as easily as I manipulated all of you here. And this was just a post.
Well, that about wraps up my offering I'd say. Thank you so much for your time.
Raven
PS ~ Edited for content.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
If my point couldn't be made in open and fair debate, I have illustrated it by drawing out the three of you.
Huh? You "drew me out"? For all you know I agree with you, so how are you arriving at your conclusion? And if I haven't been calling for open and fair debate here, then just exactly what the hell have I been doing?
I'm not sure what else to say. It seems that even in staying out of the argument and just trying to call for a little more perspective, I'm somehow still having a "point" illustrated to me. Possibly it's a relevant one, but I fail to see any real point to all of the anger around here lately.
ADDENDUM (45 minutes later): More importantly, I just don't feel like arguing. We're going on vacation (our first real vakay in 3 years) in a few days, and I just don't have it in me right now to bicker. I'm too busy imaging myself relaxing for a whole week, with friends and fun and beer. In light of that, it's hard to get too worked up over a blog!
Comment by Morgan Bell
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how can a blogger ever have a civilised discussion with someone after they have had something as prejudiced as that thrown at them?
its completely pointless trying to defame a blogger by suggesting ridiculous things about their personal life rather than responding to things they actually say
Thought Zone is a great blog with two highly articulate writers, theres no need to be nasty to either of them
Comment by tlcorbin
Morgan, the Thought Zone has become a closed forum for proponents with a political agenda which I find offensive.
Comment by RubySoho
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It is just a blog Raven. A blog on which I discuss my opinions on current and past world events. I do not expect everyone to agree with me on every point I make.
But I do expect all commenters to refrain from calling me (and my other readers) names and attempting to use my own dead father against me. That is just about the most hurtful and offensive thing anyone has ever said to me on this or any other blog and I won't accept that sort of below the belt attack.
If you look back over your comments you will see that I was quite prepared to discuss your initial queries. It was not until you started throwing personal insults that I asked you to desist.
You are not winning anyone over with your constant badgering and whining.
Give it a rest.
Comment by RubySoho
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I never thought it would happen here and I'll work pretty hard to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Comment by tlcorbin
So, how does this fit in to your point of view?
Israel and the P.L.O. signed an agreement today that formally begins Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area of the West Bank -- lands occupied for 27 years -- and grants Palestinians a measure of self-government for the first time, though not sovereignty.
Link to story
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i am no expert on the middle east but you each seem to have a wealth of knowledge on the topic . . . perhaps i could pose a few laymans questions that you each could answer (with references, quotes etc) to explain your opinions and have a dignified debate?
1. Which geographical areas make up the "occupied territories"?
2. Which nation owns the land in question today?
3. Which authority decided ownership and when?
4. Is Israel in strategic/tactical danger from the rest of the middle east if they do not occupy the territories?
5. Does political instability in a region excuse or justify excessive force being used as preventative measure (ie the best defense is a good attack) from any concerned party?
6. Are all surrounding Islamic or Arabic nations generally considered as one opposing force who is currently preparing to attack Israel? (does recent history support this theory?)
7. Does Israel have a right to expand its territories or flex its military muscle at the expense of Palestine to deter future attacks (possibly nuclear) from other hostile nations?
this is just an attempt to mediate, perhaps if you both have some structured questions you can address the issues rather than each other . . . i dont think this is a closed forum, but both parties have to be open and respectful to engage in a debate
Comment by RubySoho
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I was a big fan of Rabin. I was devastated when he was killed as I knew the whole peace process would be derailed...and it was. When I say Israel does not want peace, I don't mean that no Israeli has ever wanted peace, or that the Israeli people as a whole don't want peace. I mean that the current Israeli government is not serious about reaching a peace deal based on a two state solution. I believe this is due to the influence that Likud weilds on Olmert's government. I believe Olmert's hands are essentially tied. I have already discussed this in previous posts.
The fact remains Raven, that the Occupied Territories are illegal under international law. The fact also remains that though Israel cites Jerusalem as its "eternal capital" few countries recognise it as such. And it is a fact that the expanding settlements in the West Bank indicate that Israel has no intention of withdrawing at any time in the forseeable future.
If you think this blog is agenda driven then can I respectfully suggest you no longer read it?
Comment by tlcorbin
I'll respond later, thank you. My brain needs some duct taping at the moment; a vicious, mean and mind numbing migraine headache has me in it's grasp.
Comment by tlcorbin
But, again, a sad fact of life is this: to the victor belongs the spoils, there was a 6 day war and Israel won, the bulk of the Arabs abandoned the area. It's Israel's.
Further, jews occupied the land longer than any other people in the region.
The world court has no jurisdiction over internal Israeli policies.
G'night.
Comment by RubySoho
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Well actually no you are mistaken here. After WW2 and the creation of the United Nations, it was commonly accepted that subsuming or annexing land after victory in a war was no longer acceptable.
Internal Israeli affairs? The occupied territories are not a part of Israel any more than Iraq is a part of the United States.
Comment by tlcorbin
Comment by RubySoho
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The Occupied Territories (OTs) refer to the areas known as the West Bank (bordering on Jordan and includes East Jerusalem, and Ramallah) and the Golan Heights (Syria). Israel is currently in negotiations to return control of the Golan to Syria. Israel also used to occupy part of the Sinai Peninsula on the Egyptian border but it returned this land to Egypt as part of its peace agreement with that country. Gaza used to be an OT but control now lies with Hamas, though it is not a sovereign State.
No-one actually "owns" the land. Before the 1967 war it was considered part of Jordan. Although it is occupied by the IDF, it cannot formally annexe it because it contravenes international law.
See above. Israel seized the land in 1967 and has retained a military and settler presence ever since.
Israel is definitely not in danger of attack if it withdraws from the West Bank. Israel and Jordan have signed a peace deal and opened their borders to one another.. Israel is not in danger of any attack from Jordan.
5. Does political instability in a region excuse or justify excessive force being used as preventative measure (ie the best defense is a good attack) from any concerned party?
Probably a matter of opinion. But if pre-emptive action is justifiable on the part of Israel then, I guess it makes the Iraq War pretty justifiable too huh?
No. As I sated Israel has signed peace deals with Jordan and Egypt and a deal with Syria looks likely. Iran and Israel like to taunt each other and Israel's threat to attack Iran was one of the reasons our oil prices went up last week but this is an altogether different issue to the one I was addressing in my post i.e Israel's occupation of the West Bank.
The problem here is that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank has very little to do with its security. The issue of the settlements is a religious one- i.e the settlers are ultra orthodox Jews who are reclaiming what they deem to be land granted to the Jews by God. Ah...it always comes back to religion doesn't it?
I am going to expand on this in a post I am writing now but just briefly, there are many soldiers and pilots who now refuse to serve in the OTs as they don't consider it necessary for the defence of their country. They also consider the treatment of the Palestinians to be cruel and not worth killing or dying for.
Comment by RubySoho
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In other words you have no answer. What do you mean "you rest your case"? I am just saying that the OTs are illegal under international law. If that was not the case they would formally be a part of Israel by now. Israel cannot annexe them because the United Nations will vetoe any attempt. The UN has repeatedly asked Israel to withdraw and Israel repeatedly refuses. The occupation is illegal Raven. You cannot escape that one simple fact.
Comment by tlcorbin
"Popular sentiments are often exploited for political expediency. Thus, it is largely the “threat” posed by Israel that the Syrian, and to an extent the Egyptian, governments have used to justify their decades-long states of emergency, while it is the “threat” posed to Israel by its Arab neighbours that is used to justify Israel’s militaristic policies and to secure its continuing Western support. The international community’s failure to end Israel’s military occupation of the Palestinian Territories, and to ensure a durable solution which recognizes and guarantees the fundamental rights of both Israelis and Palestinians, throws a dark shadow over the wider region, and remains a potential source of regional or global confrontation."
Failure by the world community to take concrete action after the occupation of the territories suggests tacit empathy and approval of Israeli actions. Were this not serving the interests of a special interest group this sh/could have been resolved years ago.
My question still remains this; why not?
Turmoil in the region is a disguise for something else, but what?
Whose purpose is being served?
What's their agenda.
I've tried sharing my ideas, but you reject reject them out of hand, so I won't engage you further.
Comment by RubySoho
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Yes Raven, I have asked this question before- how long will the world continue to turn a blind eye to the plight of the Palestinians?
I don't know. I don't know why Israel is permitted to continue acting in this way.
Does AI mention who this "special interest" group is?
Comment by Jeff Musall
What is needed is real, strong, and decisive world action. Jerusalem needs to return to the mandate naming it an international city. A real Palestinian state needs to exist. The area needs to be disarmed. Will all of this happen soon? Probably not, but real changes are possible with these ultimate goals in mind.
Comment by tlcorbin
The bold words - Amnesty International's 2008 is the link for the source comment above.
I don't know. I don't know why Israel is permitted to continue acting in this way.
This is the question that needs answering Ruby, and that is what I was alluding to earlier; with the point being, things may not be a obvious as they appear.
Amended for clarity.
Comment by tlcorbin
. . . is actually not what I believe, it's what I have learned to be the reality in these situations.
Radical Islamists have equally wet pants over the idea of an end time event to herald in their savior and version of a new age. They're all nuts.
Disarm? The region???? Be my guest and try. But, I am afraid that things will go nuclear first for the very reasons I predicted on the Coffee Quip.
Comment by RubySoho
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And still America gives it unconditional support.
Why? I think Jeff answers that question pretty well.