RubySoho
Winston
Two More Unbelievably Misogynstic Quotes From The Bible
May 27th 2008 05:12
Firstly, I am going to warn that some of you will no doubt be infuriated by this post. But this is something that I feel strongly about. I view the Bible as a book like any other and Christianity as an ideology like any other. Thus, I feel that in a society that champions the freedom of speech both are therefore open to criticism. Indeed in order for society to progress criticism of any and all prevalent ideologies must be examined and discussed openly. So here goes.
In my post Top Ten Reasons I Don't Believe In God, I stated that my number 1 reason for disbelieving in the existence of the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God of the Bible and Koran was the overwhelming hatred of women that these books, particularly the Bible contained.
This are some of the Bible quotes I reproduced to demonstrate my point:
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner"
(I Timothy 2:11-14).
"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).
"Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23).
"If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her saying, 'I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' …and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
"A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away" (Ecclesiasticus 25:25).
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God…A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).
Now lest you think that the above is a comprehensive list of all the misogyny in the Bible I thought I would share two more quotes from the "good book" that make it quite apparent-to me at least- that the male writers of the Bible did not have any respect for women.
Genesis 19:5-8:
"5They called out to Lot and said, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Send them out to us so we can have sex with them!"
6 Lot went out to them at the entrance and shut the door behind him. 7 He said, "Don't do [this] evil, my brothers. 8 Look, I've got two daughters who haven't had sexual relations with a man. (B) I'll bring them out to you, and you can do whatever you want [a] to them. However, don't do anything to these men, because they have come under the protection of my roof."
That is part of the story of Sodom and Gomorah. Those "two men" visiting with Lot where supposedly angels who dropped by for a cup of tea. Yes, didn't you know that? In ancient Israel angels frequently made the trip down from heaven to hang out with the common folk. So the evil homosexuals wanted to do the dirty with the angels and what does Lot do? Well, being the godly man that he is, he offers up HIS OWN VIRGIN DAUGHTERS to be raped by the entire town instead.
Wow. What an awesome role model. I'm sure 'Jehovah' was really proud.
Numbers 5:12-31
12Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
26And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.
Okay so this passage rambles on for quite a bit but in a nut shell: If a man so much as suspects that his wife cheated on him, he is to take her to a priest who will give her some sort of magic potion which will cause her "bitter suffering". If she is guilty then she will bear the curse of a lifetime. If she is innocent, then it's okay, she'll eventually get better and will be able to have children. Of course, there is no magic potion for men to drink if their wives think they are cheating on them and of course, it doesn't matter if the woman is guilty or not- the punishment is to go ahead.
And the best part? At every step along the way the woman shall say "Amen, Amen". Well, of course she shall! I mean she knows her place right?
NOTE: In ancient Hebrew the term "belly to swell and thy to rot away" translates as having a miscarriage. There are some translaters who maintain that this passage is actually condoning the induction of a miscarriage in the hapless woman.
How can we continue to uphold a book as a guide for living our lives when it so clearly disrespects 51% of the population? How are we as a society going to successfully combat the never ending sexism and discrimination against women when children are taught from such a young age that this is an acceptable way to view their wives, mothers, sisters and daughters?
The Bible was written at a time when human civilisation was in its infancy. The knowledge of the natural world was limited, Superstition and fear was understandably prevalent. A case can therefore be argued that the Bible was simply a product of its times, that the above statements no longer apply to us.
And to that I say exactly! Is the Bible and the "God of Abraham" really relevant to modern civilisation? Or is it time we moved on?
Or am I being incredibly unfair? Honest opinions please.
Ruby
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Comment by Journeywoman
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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Comment by Nomad
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you're not being incredibly unfair, the bible is incredibly outdated!!!
thats my honest opinion
rock on
Comment by Louie
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I would say Ruby, for your own sanity, take it as a given that it is sexist and outdated, don't torture yourself any more
love your work, admire your passion
Louie
Comment by Aimzster
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Comment by postmoderncritic
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You shouldn't worry so much about what the religiously devout will find infurating about your argument - you are setting a trend of questioning misogyny (and other aspects) in this text that is worthwhile to a lot of people, and if people can't see your point then they have a lot of issues to deal with, none of which you wuold probably want to sympathise with.
Have a nice day.
Comment by OnlineWriter
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This pretty much sums it up.
Comment by RubySoho
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Thanks Louie, just standing up for what I believe in. I know it won't happen anywhere near my lifetime, but I do long for the day the human race leaves religion behind. Its held us back for too long.
Hi Aimzster, I had a religious upbringing too. I guess that's why I can't seem to shake my fascination with religion.
Morgan, the above is not even the half of it!
Thanks Nomad, and I agree.
PoMo It's not just the devout that i worry about offending. It's this unwritten rule we have whereby religion is deemed to be beyond criticism. Where questioning it and criticisng it renders one a "bigot" or a "hatemonger". I don't understand this attitude. I criticise governments, i criticise leaders, and I criticise religious organisations. What is the dfference? Why are some fair game but others not?
Hi Online....it's Rob right? Oh I can tell this link is gonna be good....
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
So, Ruby, let me beat everyone to the punch and inform you that you are obviously misquoting and taking those verses out of context. You, Ruby, don't get it.
There, now you've got that out of the way.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Out of the context of the ancient past where it belongs.
Oh how I wish I could put it in its rightful context.
You know what cracks me up? We could just as easily be worshipping the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead. Or the countless other holy books that littered our past. But this is the one that stuck. Sigh.
Comment by Anonymous
25:19. And any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman:
25:20. And any affliction, but the affliction from them that hate him:
25:21. And any revenge, but the revenge of enemies.
25:22. There is no head worse than the head of a serpent:
25:23. And there is no anger above the anger of a woman. It will be more agreeable to abide with a lion and a dragon, than to dwell with a wicked woman.
25:24. The wickedness of a woman changeth her face: and she darkeneth her countenance as a bear: and sheweth it like sackcloth. In the midst of her neighbours,
Comment by Ayda
Phantasmelodia
I wonder... Is a female bat better than a male bat? The male whale reigns the surface of the oceans while the female dwells at the bottom? Does the lion eat the best parts of the prey and the lioness stand behind waiting for the leftovers?
Does nature have distinct gender discrimination? Then, why do homo sapiens, again?
Oh... Belief systems... Right, right.
Comment by Calvinistic Boanerge
Or the catholic"bible" both contain many (if not nothing but falsies.)
Romans 2:5
"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of judgment of GOD, who will render to each person according to his deeds:"
Yeah thats an actually chapter! WHEW! What strange quoting scripture that's actually there.
Comment by Calvinistic Boanerge
Or the catholic"bible" both contain many (if not nothing but falsies.)
Romans 2:5
"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of judgment of GOD, who will render to each person according to his deeds:"
Yeah thats an actually chapter! WHEW! What strange quoting scripture that's actually there.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by Anne Tootill
The Female View
Funny Stuff
Corinthians 13:1-13
1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
4
Love suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12
For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Old fashioned wording, but I think you'll get the drift.
Cheers, Anne
Comment by OnlineWriter
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It's all or nothing baby.
Comment by RubySoho
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Yes, it would be nice if all bibles were the same wouldn't it but apparently God gets confused....
Hi Anon, thanks for quotes, as I said above the quotes do vary from translation to translation, I chose the Catholic version for reasons I outlined to the Calvinist.
Comment by Geoff Egan
Cinema XYZ
Noise Fanatic
Hinduism varies according to different texts as to what rights women have, but after marriage women are/were (i don't think it's too common any more, but don't quote me on that) meant to treat their husbands as a god.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
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Hi Anne, I don't dispute that there are many appealing passages in the Bible. And it is perhaps this fact that allows people to accept all the questionable parts. But I can't. The Bible just does not respect women. I cannot accept that.
Ah Geoff, you have beaten me to it, I am planning to post article about other religions too. I am still gathering the research. But my main reason for focusing on the Bible is the simple fact that I live in the West and I view this sort of criticism as a self-criticism of my society. I know that Islam also needs some reforming but I think that the change must happen from within.
Comment by RubySoho
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I think the days of organised religion being beyond the scope of criticism are well and truly over....
Comment by RevHead
I've come to this blog via a car site and would like to suggest and offer the following with regards to your misconceptions about God and the Bible.
1. As usual most of these quotes have been grabbed out of text with little regard for the preamble. As a result you have basically quoted them out of context. It's known as monotonic reasoning... just looking for the facts that support your logic rather than looking at all the facts. Take your arguments to a christian blog and test your theory...could be an interesting debate....
2. Try Reading Proverbs 31 for a more realistic view of women. Female folk are considered invaluable.
...and lastly despite a lot of old testament quotes which some have pointed out in their comments as "old" and out dated. well they are and were surpased by the birth of Jesus 2008 years ago, but I'd like to go back there and throw in something for the girls from Genesis which they might like to dwell on......
When God worked his way through the 6 days of creation he arrived at man.... or a man....but his world wasn't complete...it wasn't quite right..... so what did he do next?????
.....and then he rested.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
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That's from the New Testament, by the way.
And it appears that you think that telling me that as I woman I exist for no other reason than to complement a man is a compliment to me? And that is supposed to make up for the fact that women are to blame for The Fall? And that we are still being punished for it to this very day?
Comment by Geoff Egan
Cinema XYZ
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Despite the fact I'm most definately an athiest, I was raised a Catholic, and I still have a fairly deep respect for religion if not a belief in it.
But what RevHead said is pretty true. At least for Catholics, other than the big stories of the Old testament, little is taught. I remember the famous stories, like Goliath, Noah, et al, but other than that the Old Testament is almost untaught.
Comment by Madamecherryblossom
yes those are some beautiful quotes..but none i find are truely on this topic...not one speaks of women kindly... love yes...but love of whom or rather what?
Ruby-
you are entitled to your opinion and you voiced it quite well... thank you! i've struggled with religion being forced upon me my whole life...even to this very day...first of all thank you for being so brave and putting your thoughts to the public eye...knowing that there might be some harsh critisism to follow... secondly i think that the bible is like the telephone game but adding a king/ruler that wants the story to warp to his belief... following the bible is like someone finding my journal a couple centuries later and basing a world wide brainwashing religion on my silly thoughts or opinion...about the world and happenings around me...take two people and put them through the same exact day and thier journal entry would be completely different...the point i'm trying to make was best said by Buddha "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if i have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"...
thanks
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
If the "fall" were a fact, there would be absolutely nothing for any woman to be ashamed of. In my book, if Eve did eat from the trees of knowledge, she's to to be admired. The bible describes followers as sheep. I would rather not be that. Thank you, Eve....
Comment by The wonderful Peter Yang
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Cheers
Comment by RubySoho
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In ancient times the women of Israel were treated far worse than any other tribe at the time. They enjoyed less rights and their husband and fathers were pretty much their masters. This is was a direct result of the status of women in the Bible.
In the Middle Ages, the Church did not even allow the lay people to read the Bible- they just had to accept what the Church told them about it. And now even though there are millions of copies of the Bible people are still encouraged not to read or take any notice of the "nasty bits". But that does not mean that they are not there.
Whilst I can respect the need that some people have to believe in something bigger, that there is a reason why we are all here, I cannot respect the Bible.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
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And you anaolgy about your diary is spot on- the Bible was written in another time and place. It just makes no sense to me for us to try to uphold its instructions and examples today.
Hi wonderful peter; glad you could drop in and have a laugh.
Jeff, once again you have demonstrated why you are one of my favourite people on Orble. I've never heard anyone put it that way before. Damn straight Eve should be congratulated. She wanted to eat from the Tree of Knowledge dammit! She wanted to know!
Comment by RevHead
I'm not going to go deep into christianity... that's your choice. Christianity is a choice and it's between you and God. No amount of evangelistic rhetoric is going to convert you until you are ready to receieve. The only chink in God's perfect Eden was "free will" and guess what we still have it today. Eve used her free will in the so called Fall but if you study that further you will find that Adam was right there by her side when the Devil did all the tempting... and did he do anything to stop her .... no.. he took a bite as well. Adam was just as much at fault as Eve. and that's where the "blame game" entered the world and it hasn't stopped since.
You have thrown me a curveball with "sign of authority on her head" but I think you are refering to 1 Corinthians 11 and it's repeated elsewhere in the Bible but I'd need to research that so I hope I'm in the right place... but you've stopped short again... read on and there is a big "however". Chase through the dictionary and "authority" and "head" when used together basically mean leadership.... I personally don't have a problem with God telling woman they should go walk through life with authority.... but perhaps a woman hating God may interpret that passage differently
The whole issue of leadership flows nicely in Jeff's comments about sheep...sheep need a shepard or they get lost...people need boundary's or we have kaos....cross the boundary and any action has a consequence... Adam and Eve crossed the boundary and we are the cosequence...
Madam Cherry Blossoms comments are interesting.. I think she is making reference to "Cults" perhaps Scientology..... Her reference to history is nice... are you saying Jesus wasn't real...despite so many witnesses... are you telling me that in 2000 years someone will be blogging that the "Holcaust" never really happened and that Hitler didn't exist.... I digress slightly but I hope you get my drift.
As for Buddism.... I work in Thailand... the capital of Buddism. The Christian twist on your saying is " Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" ... but coming back to Budda: how can you generate reason and common sense if you eliminate everything around you? Reason comes from teaching and experience, and common sense in it's raw form is the ability to distinguish right from wrong...... and we come around a full loop and back to leadership... and dare I say someone to guide the sheep....
Ruby Soho.... I apologize for going on a rant but your contradiction about respect is unfortunate... you say you respect a persons choice ie Christianity who's basis is the Bible, but imediately withdraw that respect in the next sentence.......
But all this talk of "desperately trying to escape religion" is emotional, rather than factual.
The Bible is an amazing book and it's got everything in it to rank as a best seller... and it is...murder, adultry,sex, betrayal, revenge..etc... it's got the lot. In it's elementary form it is the basis of our legal system. If everyone read and practiced the book of Proverbs the world would would be a much better place...
...and finally the monika you use " RubySoho" couldn't be a closet Rancid fan could you ...nice music!!!
Probably my last entry but I hope I've exposed you to a different perspective as you have me. Thank you
Comment by anarchris
For me as a 44 yr. old, it goes without saying that religion has as many residues of the errors of that time and place as the timeless truths that it canonized. Perhaps this site or blog is a revelation for young people but i wonder about the usefulness of restating society's long established consensus that religion is good and bad. What would be more progressive is for would-be liberals to acknowledge the misandrist hatred of men by feminism and thereby establish themselves as people who are committed to the whole truth regardless of who's politics it serves otherwise you're no better than your enemies who give others a selective version of reality.
'All men are potential rapists beacuse all men have a penis.'
'This product was not tested on animals-not including men'
'women need men like fish need bicycles' Gloria Steinem
'I never hire men as baby sitters...cause let's face it, men have a predisposition for sex.' Paul Gillespie of the sex crimes unit of Toronto Police in answer to the question 'how do we protect our children from child molesters.'
Response from the woman at Global news which did not challenge this statement that would be considered scandalous if it was said about any other identity group' you may consider this sexist still others may consider it powerful information...'
'one out of four women is abused-flip that around one out of four men is a potential abuser' non white female reporter for city tv in Toronto Ontario Canada.
'your opinion doesn't matter cause you can't have babies or periods' feminist to male present at a meeting in which he was ignored by all.
'... the last thing we need to hear from is another white man' female at ndp convention responded to by applause by males and females present.
'my (male) bass player just said that you can consider the men here a pair of earrings' female performer at lilith fair.
x press in Ottawa Canada publishes statistics on violence against women on int'l women's day with a picture of a smiling female butchering male genitalia in effigy with a knife.
Many a joke about john wayne bobbit getting his penis cut off by his wife when we know how liberals would react to the same 'sense of humor' about doing the same to women, blacks, jews, children, animals- you know anyone else in the universe.
Am i engaging in childish tit for tat 'oh, yeah? well, 'they' do it too!' even steven one up man ship? No, i am concerned first and foremost with hypocrisy in any camp that purports to be 'God's gift to humanity' that in reality is just another bunch of brain washed fools who are under the laughable delusion that 'it's different when i do it.' A pox on both your houses- you're all fools and hypocrites to me. And so my 'faith' is not in people despite the fact that i care about their suffering and liberation but in life itself by any other name because nobody practices what they preach and no one is better than their enemies and no one learns the lessons of history.
I ask you who's 'sin' is greater? those who act ignorantly in ignorant times? or those who act ignorantly in enlightened times? those who use gender and race as a basis for how people are treated when they honestly believe that this is the way to understand eachother or those who use gender and race as they basis for identifying 'who's one of us and who's one of them? when their pretense is that it should have never nor ever again be the basis for law and relationships. I say the sin of the new pharisees the left is greater than that of their predecessors and oppressors because you live with the self reputation of being morally superior and above the great evils of history.
Comment by RevHead
but If I'm getting your gist...your right.. we are all sinners and all equals
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
here is the full quote from 1 Corinthians:
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God…A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).
That looks pretty clear to me Rev: Woman is subservient to man. The sign of authority is the head covering which indicates she is inferior.
Also i said I respect people's right to feel the need for faith but i cannot respect what is written in the Bible. In other words i wish it was possible for people to have faith without invoking the Bible.
About the existence of Jesus- whilst it is very likely he did exist, it is not absolutely certain- there were no eye witness records. The Gospels were written some 70-100 years later. So who is to say what the real Jesus was like? There were many men claiming to be prophets at that time.
Are you a literal Christian Rev? I know that some branches of Christianity now view Genesis more as a metaphor than as actual history.
I don't hate God. How can you hate something that does not exist? But I do wish the Bible had never been written....
Anyway, thanks for popping in and leaving some friendly comments. You seem like a genuinely nice person. And RevHead in the same way that you seem to hope that I accept God into my life, I hope that one day you figure things for yourself and realise that you don't need the Bible to be a good person or have a fulfilling life.
By the way, I used to be a believer. Take care.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Seriously dude, when men have suffered at the hands of women the way women have suffered, and continue to suffer, at the hands of men, then you can come crying to me okay? Until then maybe you should try keeping your comment even slightly relevant to the original post?
I'm a feminist but I don't hate men, I'm sorry if you feel that some women take their feminisim to the extreme (and in some cases I will agree with you I'm sure), but what you are not taking into consideration is the fact that sexism against women in deeply entrenched in our culture the same way racism against blacks is in the US and racism against Aborigines is in Australia.
There is no history of misandry. There is a long and sordid history of misogyny.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
As for the woe is man yahoos...I believe it was Isaac Asimov who referred to men as "animated sperm bags." Good to remember when you want to get to heady there dude.
Men are their best when they treasure women for all their potential. Does that mean they can't be sexualized, or sex objects, or the like? I don't think so. To sometimes see a woman in raw sexual terms is part of being a man. But a real man knows there are myriad things to appreciate in a woman and women in general.
Do you know how the Iriqouis nation viewed women before the arrival of Europeans in America? Women, in most of the nation, were the only ones who could vote for the chief or for the council, and they could vote to remove them or veto them. The men were the only ones who could hold the positions, but the women held the true power. And the women were the only ones who could vote to go to war.....funny thing is, they didn't go to war much. Go figure.
Comment by RevHead
Gee your hard work.... but as Jeff says, there is so much to love about female logic.... and the world would be a much sadder place without it.
As I suggested 1Corinthians11:11 contains the "however"... my interpretation of this whole passage is self-sacrifice... you use "subserviant" and i'd use "yeilding". Either way both are extremely difficult to do whether you are a woman or a man, particularly in this "it's all about me" world. As an ex-Christian you'd know where I'm at with this one. For others following this blog: see John 3:16-17; and for the movie buffs consider what happens at the end of "The Matrix".... normal people are just not capable of making that sort of sacrifice.
As for faith. It's origins are in Christianity. I'm not totally sure you can separate it from the Bible. I guess over time the true meaning was been diluted and used in other connotations...particularly other religous philosophies. As I mentioned the Bible has life covered. you can't do or think something that isn't in it. Faith is personal and it's inherent. You can't buy it, but you can display it. People with faith are content... people with Christian faith know that God will prevail in the end....
Had a laugh with the "Literal Christian Rev"... all of a sudden I've gone from cars to Pastor "Rev"... even "Head" is comical given some of our dialogue (still laughing!!!). Yes I'm a Christian.... a practising Christian. A lot of people believe in a God but don't follow the word (I'm back to sheep again!!!)
But I do believe the stuff in the old testament occurred... just a different strategy for a different time. As you know the New Testament is the "New Covenant". The book of Proverbs is Old Testament so it still has relevance.
I'm a scientist-engineer by profession and I liken us to God's latest experiment. And the Bible is the experimental theory and detail. Things were'nt quite going right with the plan in the old testament so God came down in person, as Jesus, to try and put things right....hence the New Testament. It's light but I tends to get my point across
And it was your last statement that compelled me to respond. There are lots of good people in this world that aren't Christian and your logic suggests to me you are one of them... and dare I say it is your religious background which has influenced you attitudes and behaviour. I'm very interested in why you are now so totally opposed to God... What happened? Relationships are complicated.....but I'd like to hope that at some stage down the road you might re-kindle that one....I'd like to hope that you are on a little detour and one day..... wait for it....wait for it....
that lost sheep will find it's way home......
Yes... I know.... Sheep again!!!
But I'd like to finish where we started God doesn't hate women. Men hate women.... well some of them anyway.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Yes, I used to believe in the Bible. But I was young and impressionable and naive.
I just cannot understand how a grown person can say "God came down in person as Jesus" as a statement of fact despite there being absolutely no evidence to show that this occurred.
I know they say it is a matter of faith but I just feel it is a matter of suspending disbelief. By the time I was 19 I couldn't suspend my disbelief anymore.
Oh I used to preach the word to anyone who would listen and even those who wouldn't. My brother and sister copped the worst of it. Their ridicule only made my faith stronger at first (that whole Christian persecution complex), but eventually I realised the person I was actually trying to convince was myself. And I was failing.
So no, I won't be coming back to the fold. I won't accept that a man is to be my master. I won't accept that I inherited Eve's sin.
Like I said, I hope you you figure things out for yourself.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
p.s I should have known you picked up on the Rancid reference....
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I had no idea who I really was until I left religion behind.
Comment by RevHead
This discussion is beginning to reach that "we agree to disagree stage"
Ruby you seem like a smart girl and quite skilled at mastering men... probably much the same way Eve did (couldn't resist that one) ... I empathise with your fight to get women on an equal footing with men..... I just don't think blaming someone you believe doesn't exist, or a book you claim is fiction, is the best platform in which to do it.
Jeff .. do I detect a hint of desperation in your tone. Trust me I'm not here to convert anyone.... I can't ( It's your choice mate) ....and that includes Ruby We all make decisions and every action has a consequence...Fact, whether you have a belief system or not.
Your "Faith" reference is way off the mark. I never said you have to be religious to be "good". I used the word "influence". Our lives are the sum of our experiences. They dictate how we react and behave to certain situations. Your anti-christian stance is point in case. Your exposure to christianity has influenced your response..... somewhat negatively from my perspective...but influenced it just the same.
The so called developed nations of this world.... all have Christianity as their predominant religion. Tell me it hasn't had a positive influence!!
For the record, I have close friends who are as far away from religion as you can get....but they are essentialy good people; even sensitive enough to respect my beliefs.
....and be careful... as that old saying goes...
"watch out you don't know whats behind the curtain!!?"
I came to this site via a link. I was asked to comment. I have...... and I still believe the Bible has been the victim of selective editing
i guess we'll have to call it a draw
Comment by Mike Crowl
Webitz
Work Report
Okay, Ruby, just to show you I have been reading something on your blog (!): where do you get the idea that the women of Israel were treated worse than any other tribe? Be interested to know.
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As for the millions of copies available in the world today: hate to disagree (it's becoming a habit), but the Bible is out there in the millions because people do read it. You may not be among them, but that doesn't mean to say all those copies lie on shelves unread. There are countries in the world, like China, where they can't keep up with the supply of Bibles.
Incidentally, you quoted from Ecclesiasticus at length in your original post, and then confused it with Ecclesiastes. Two different books with different material. The first is only used in some denominations (Catholic and some Anglican), the second is one of the usual books of the Bible.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone