RubySoho
Winston
Post-Easter Musings on Atheism
March 24th 2008 21:41
I am an atheist.
This is a bold move for me. I'm generally not shy about admitting my atheism, and I've alluded to it plenty of times in posts and comments. However, I've always veered away from a declarative statement concerning my atheism, not wishing to offend anyone or attract any unwanted conflict through the "provocation" of such a post. With Easter having come and gone yesterday, the whole "religion" matter has been on my mind. In thinking about this, I've realized that I have no reason to avoid discussing my beliefs on Orble or anywhere else. One of the reasons we congregate here is for the free exchange of ideas. It is not necessary that we accept, or even respect, all of these ideas. It is only required that we respect each others' right to have diverging ideas, and that we engage each other with civility in debate. I have every right to expect that, as does everyone who puts forth a viewpoint in the public square. Having come to that conclusion, I felt that I might as well proceed with this post.
Still, I'm a bit sensitive to the fact that the lack of a belief in a god tends to make some people regard atheists as ranking somewhere between Hitler and smallpox. In America, atheists are the least trusted demographic.. I suppose that's understandable, considering that our prisons are filled to bursting with athei....oh, wait. Actually, the number of atheists in prison is much proportionately smaller than the number of theists. Either we're very good at not getting caught, or we're not the immoral hedonists that we are sometimes assumed to be.
And that is the real crux of the issue, isn't it? Misconceptions abound. I've had people genuinely puzzled by my atheism, and yet these people knew less about their religion than I do. At the core, much of the distrust of atheists is founded on the propagation of ignorance by bigoted theistic groups. A short list of the imagined traits of atheists includes:
-Atheists "hate" god/gods, because they had a bad experience with religion or did not get something they prayed for.
-Atheists know god/gods exists, but refuse to acknowledge him/them because then they wouldn't be able to do whatever they want. In short, atheists are selfish hedonists.
-Atheists want to strip everyone else of their rights to religion.
-Atheists, lacking a belief in god/gods or eternal reward/punishment, have no moral or ethical code.
-Atheists live empty, bitter lives of self-imposed exile from god's love.
-Atheists = Communists
-Atheists = Satanists.
There is more, much, much more, but you get the idea. If people ever actually TALKED to an atheist, they would probably see that none of the above is true. I, for one, have killed very few people and it's been weeks since I last attended one of our National Communistic Atheists meeting. (Just kidding. That's a little atheist humor for all you folks out there.) Let me address the above points:
-I can not speak for all atheists. I can only speak for myself, and attest to what I know about the other atheists I've met. But, keeping that in mind, I can say that I am not "mad" at god. I might as well be mad at the Easter Bunny for leaving me crappy chocolate instead of Godiva. One can't be mad at a non-existent entity. I can dislike what I see done in the name of religion, I can even be mad at theistic devotees, but mad at god? Never. Find me an atheist who gives you that as a reason, and I'll buy you a soda.
-I don't refuse to acknowledge god despite knowing he exists. Why in the hell would anyone do that? If I really believed that god was real (and that he would damn me to hell for not believing in him), I'd have to be an imbecile or a lunatic to defy him. Does anyone really find this idea to be valid? Not to mention the fact that atheists are NOT all selfish hedonists. Atheists raise families. Atheists give to charity. Atheists contribute to society. For example, Bill Gates is an atheist. He has donated billions of dollars to charity. Billions. Carl Sagan was an atheist. He spent his life expanding human knowledge and encouraging education. Lance Armstrong is an atheist. He has won the Tour de France seven times and beaten cancer, for which he has also raised millions of dollars for research through his foundation. These are just a few examples, using well-known people, to illustrate that atheism and selfishness, atheism and callousness, or atheism and hedonism do not go hand in hand.
-America is founded upon the freedom of expression, and the freedom of religion. We ALL have the rights to our beliefs. While I personally do not share in the belief in a deity, and while I may even find such a belief harmful in some instances, I do not intend nor wish to take the right to that belief away from anyone. The moment we try to take away ONE group's beliefs, all of our beliefs become vulnerable. Any group that attempts to do so, attempts it at their peril. Not wanting religion injected into politics, or not wanting religiously-motivated laws, is not the same thing as wishing to take away people's rights to worship as they see fit. Anyone who contends that it is the same thing is exhibiting either gross misunderstanding or intellectual dishonesty.
-As for atheists lacking a moral code, I will again cite the fact that atheists make up a proportionately minute percentage of the prison population. Positive morals and ethics have in no way ever been shown to require a belief in a deity. Some studies have actually demonstrated the opposite. In fact, I would argue that morals and ethics that derive from concern for our fellow man and out of a desire to live in harmony with our neighbors are superior to those derived from fear of punishment or the promise of eternal reward.
-My wife and I are both atheists. Our lives are anything but empty. We value our marriage above all else. We love our families dearly. We enjoy friends and music, and appreciate the good fortune we have had in life. We acknowledge the beauty inherent in nature, and find it all the more awe-inspiring precisely because it IS nature and not the grand scheme of a nebulous supernatural dictator. We value our lives very much because this one life, this one instance wherein matter has come together with the ability to acknowledge itself and its surrounding, is so very precious. Lack of a belief in heaven does not cheapen life; it makes it infinitely more worthwhile. Every color is more beautiful and every food is more rich, all because we have only a finite time to drink them in. How sad to gloss over the splendor of this life, focusing instead on the imagined promises of the next one! Countless is the number of people who have killed and been killed over the malicious fallacy of the gods. It is to our eternal shame that so many have lived and died in intellectual bondage.
Why do these ideas persist? Why do people act as though lacking a belief in an unseen, unknowable, omniscient, omnipotent superbeing, that leaves no physical traces and offers no verifiable evidence of any kind, is the highest act of lunacy? More importantly, why should it matter? Why does the very fact of our existence register as so offensive to so many people? Cultural and social norms are a large part of it, to be sure, but I still continue to find the tenacity with which people cling to these ideas (and with which they oppose those who do not share them) surprising.
Still, I do not have one moment of regret for my unbelief. I have seen all too clearly where it can lead. While most theists of all shades are generally good, honest, decent people, there are those who have twisted religion for their own ends. And there are those who are far too easily lead under its thrall. Religion can poison the mind of even the most well-intentioned among us, like a rotted carcass cast into a pool of fresh water. Any institution that can inspire such loathsome beliefs and behaviors, despite the good character of the adherents, is one that I cannot abide in good conscience. While it is not wholly evil, it can certainly never be wholly good.
I am an atheist because reason forces me to be. I have examined the claims for god and found them lacking. Were I to profess belief despite this, and were god to be real, he would find me to be a most egregious liar. Better an honest infidel than a hypocritical worshipper, it seems to me. If god exists, and decides to punish me for being the way he must have made me, then let that stand as a testament to his injustice.
I can only hope that some day, with time, people's distrust of those who do not share their belief in god will fade as they realize that we are their family, their friends, their co-workers and their neighbors. We are scientists and teachers and firemen and janitors. We are human beings with our own thoughts and feelings, no more or less worthy of respect than anyone else. Ask us what we believe and we'll tell you, I promise. Just ask nicely, please.
This is a bold move for me. I'm generally not shy about admitting my atheism, and I've alluded to it plenty of times in posts and comments. However, I've always veered away from a declarative statement concerning my atheism, not wishing to offend anyone or attract any unwanted conflict through the "provocation" of such a post. With Easter having come and gone yesterday, the whole "religion" matter has been on my mind. In thinking about this, I've realized that I have no reason to avoid discussing my beliefs on Orble or anywhere else. One of the reasons we congregate here is for the free exchange of ideas. It is not necessary that we accept, or even respect, all of these ideas. It is only required that we respect each others' right to have diverging ideas, and that we engage each other with civility in debate. I have every right to expect that, as does everyone who puts forth a viewpoint in the public square. Having come to that conclusion, I felt that I might as well proceed with this post.
Still, I'm a bit sensitive to the fact that the lack of a belief in a god tends to make some people regard atheists as ranking somewhere between Hitler and smallpox. In America, atheists are the least trusted demographic.. I suppose that's understandable, considering that our prisons are filled to bursting with athei....oh, wait. Actually, the number of atheists in prison is much proportionately smaller than the number of theists. Either we're very good at not getting caught, or we're not the immoral hedonists that we are sometimes assumed to be.
And that is the real crux of the issue, isn't it? Misconceptions abound. I've had people genuinely puzzled by my atheism, and yet these people knew less about their religion than I do. At the core, much of the distrust of atheists is founded on the propagation of ignorance by bigoted theistic groups. A short list of the imagined traits of atheists includes:
-Atheists "hate" god/gods, because they had a bad experience with religion or did not get something they prayed for.
-Atheists know god/gods exists, but refuse to acknowledge him/them because then they wouldn't be able to do whatever they want. In short, atheists are selfish hedonists.
-Atheists want to strip everyone else of their rights to religion.
-Atheists, lacking a belief in god/gods or eternal reward/punishment, have no moral or ethical code.
-Atheists live empty, bitter lives of self-imposed exile from god's love.
-Atheists = Communists
-Atheists = Satanists.
There is more, much, much more, but you get the idea. If people ever actually TALKED to an atheist, they would probably see that none of the above is true. I, for one, have killed very few people and it's been weeks since I last attended one of our National Communistic Atheists meeting. (Just kidding. That's a little atheist humor for all you folks out there.) Let me address the above points:
-I can not speak for all atheists. I can only speak for myself, and attest to what I know about the other atheists I've met. But, keeping that in mind, I can say that I am not "mad" at god. I might as well be mad at the Easter Bunny for leaving me crappy chocolate instead of Godiva. One can't be mad at a non-existent entity. I can dislike what I see done in the name of religion, I can even be mad at theistic devotees, but mad at god? Never. Find me an atheist who gives you that as a reason, and I'll buy you a soda.
-I don't refuse to acknowledge god despite knowing he exists. Why in the hell would anyone do that? If I really believed that god was real (and that he would damn me to hell for not believing in him), I'd have to be an imbecile or a lunatic to defy him. Does anyone really find this idea to be valid? Not to mention the fact that atheists are NOT all selfish hedonists. Atheists raise families. Atheists give to charity. Atheists contribute to society. For example, Bill Gates is an atheist. He has donated billions of dollars to charity. Billions. Carl Sagan was an atheist. He spent his life expanding human knowledge and encouraging education. Lance Armstrong is an atheist. He has won the Tour de France seven times and beaten cancer, for which he has also raised millions of dollars for research through his foundation. These are just a few examples, using well-known people, to illustrate that atheism and selfishness, atheism and callousness, or atheism and hedonism do not go hand in hand.
-America is founded upon the freedom of expression, and the freedom of religion. We ALL have the rights to our beliefs. While I personally do not share in the belief in a deity, and while I may even find such a belief harmful in some instances, I do not intend nor wish to take the right to that belief away from anyone. The moment we try to take away ONE group's beliefs, all of our beliefs become vulnerable. Any group that attempts to do so, attempts it at their peril. Not wanting religion injected into politics, or not wanting religiously-motivated laws, is not the same thing as wishing to take away people's rights to worship as they see fit. Anyone who contends that it is the same thing is exhibiting either gross misunderstanding or intellectual dishonesty.
-As for atheists lacking a moral code, I will again cite the fact that atheists make up a proportionately minute percentage of the prison population. Positive morals and ethics have in no way ever been shown to require a belief in a deity. Some studies have actually demonstrated the opposite. In fact, I would argue that morals and ethics that derive from concern for our fellow man and out of a desire to live in harmony with our neighbors are superior to those derived from fear of punishment or the promise of eternal reward.
-My wife and I are both atheists. Our lives are anything but empty. We value our marriage above all else. We love our families dearly. We enjoy friends and music, and appreciate the good fortune we have had in life. We acknowledge the beauty inherent in nature, and find it all the more awe-inspiring precisely because it IS nature and not the grand scheme of a nebulous supernatural dictator. We value our lives very much because this one life, this one instance wherein matter has come together with the ability to acknowledge itself and its surrounding, is so very precious. Lack of a belief in heaven does not cheapen life; it makes it infinitely more worthwhile. Every color is more beautiful and every food is more rich, all because we have only a finite time to drink them in. How sad to gloss over the splendor of this life, focusing instead on the imagined promises of the next one! Countless is the number of people who have killed and been killed over the malicious fallacy of the gods. It is to our eternal shame that so many have lived and died in intellectual bondage.
Why do these ideas persist? Why do people act as though lacking a belief in an unseen, unknowable, omniscient, omnipotent superbeing, that leaves no physical traces and offers no verifiable evidence of any kind, is the highest act of lunacy? More importantly, why should it matter? Why does the very fact of our existence register as so offensive to so many people? Cultural and social norms are a large part of it, to be sure, but I still continue to find the tenacity with which people cling to these ideas (and with which they oppose those who do not share them) surprising.
Still, I do not have one moment of regret for my unbelief. I have seen all too clearly where it can lead. While most theists of all shades are generally good, honest, decent people, there are those who have twisted religion for their own ends. And there are those who are far too easily lead under its thrall. Religion can poison the mind of even the most well-intentioned among us, like a rotted carcass cast into a pool of fresh water. Any institution that can inspire such loathsome beliefs and behaviors, despite the good character of the adherents, is one that I cannot abide in good conscience. While it is not wholly evil, it can certainly never be wholly good.
I am an atheist because reason forces me to be. I have examined the claims for god and found them lacking. Were I to profess belief despite this, and were god to be real, he would find me to be a most egregious liar. Better an honest infidel than a hypocritical worshipper, it seems to me. If god exists, and decides to punish me for being the way he must have made me, then let that stand as a testament to his injustice.
I can only hope that some day, with time, people's distrust of those who do not share their belief in god will fade as they realize that we are their family, their friends, their co-workers and their neighbors. We are scientists and teachers and firemen and janitors. We are human beings with our own thoughts and feelings, no more or less worthy of respect than anyone else. Ask us what we believe and we'll tell you, I promise. Just ask nicely, please.
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Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Great line...I may have to steal it one day.
Yeah, atheists get a raw deal over there , huh? But I have read or heard somewhere (it may have been on Bill Maher's show actually), that atheism is growing fast in the States.
Personally, I think there have always been large numbers of us out there but they have just been to scared to speak up.
Thanks for speaking up.
Comment by dQuarters
Comment by katyzzz
Photography Tips
Health Focus
Poetry Lighthouse
MS Paint Art
Nice to see you Winston, sorry about the controversial first post ( rather than the last post)
Comment by Journeywoman
Great Hair Style Tips
I Dream of Hollywood
Australian Chick
Gonzo
Fashion Peach
Great post, and yep, I'll be stealing that "I am an atheist because reason forces me to be" line as well. Silly Christians - myths are for kids!
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
im an atheist, my family are atheists, almost all of my friends are atheists. i consider atheism to be the default belief system in australia, maybe someone has some statistics to prove otherwise, but my experience of australian culture is that atheism is the norm and church-going folk are the minority. we are a multi-cultural country and it often seems that people with strong ties to a foreign heritage (eg: greeks, italians, south american, lebanese, indian, pakistani, or even americans) are more likely to also have religious ties and be involved in a faith-based community. so basically no i have never felt marginalised by being an atheist.
morgan
oh and sidebar: atheist is not believing in god, agnostic is being unsure as to whether god exists, is there a term for not caring if god exists?
Comment by Brenton
Dr Spin
Tales From The Other Side
Downwrite
Blip Blog
Gadget Museum
"A woman was in Ireland, talking religion. There was a bit of debete going on over who was right, and she was asked what religion she was. She replied, ateist. Somebody asked what she meant and she told them 'I don't belive in God'.
To which another womasn asked, "But is it the God of the Protestents or of the Catholics that you don't believe in?"
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Not willing to the risk the 50% chance of providing the religion which will not get him killed, the quick thinking driver answered "Neither- I am an atheist", to which the gunman replied "But are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?"
Comment by Nomad
Awesome Food
aah religion what a waste of time.
Nomad (proud not to care)
"who is this god person anyway"? douglas adams
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Still, I can't claim much first hand persecution or distress. I live near Boston, not in the deep south. Big difference. Mostly what I encounter is some benign cluelessness. I don't mind that too much, although it annoys me when people don't take the time to learn any of the history of their own faith (as they often clearly don't, surprised as they may be when I point certain aspects out to them).
Thanks very much for the comment. Speaking up is important. Silence only condones intolerance.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
As for your comment, much like I said to dQuarters, I'm not sure how to respond. You don't believe in atheists? Could you please clarify what you mean by that?
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Thanks very much for the comment
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
i consider atheism to be the default belief system in australia
Atheism is the default belief system for all of us. No one is born a Baptist. If only more people were allowed to maintain that default position, rather than having mythology pasted over it from infancy!
Re: your sidebar, I'm not sure. Ambivalent atheist, perhaps? Agnosticism IS atheism, really, just a different shade of it. Anytime someone cannot answer the question of "Do you believe god exists" with a yes, they are an atheist. Atheism is what you believe to be true, agnosticism is what you know to be true. As no one can know much of anything to a 100% degree of certainty, it's somewhat of a moot point. What matters is what you believe, and why.
Thanks for the comment!
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
In America we have a similar semantic problem. Not believing in god is OK, but being an atheist is terrible.
Thanks for stopping by.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
I couldn't agree more with your second statement.
Thanks for the input.
Comment by dQuarters
I am not a religious person. I do not believe in a holy... much. I just have yet to hear a discussion on the existence of God (or lack thereof) that clears all mention of...
-religion
-easter bunny
-santa clause
-delinquency
I believe in God. And my "proof" is everything around me. Somehow that proof seems limited though. My God is not a man in the sky, nor a damning force defined by any texts written by man.
I don't believe in Atheist because my belief in YOU knows you're part of God, no matter how strong the rejection. No label can change that.
I respect your belief because I know that you not believing in God, or a heaven does not mean you are a "bad" person. To me it just means that you are an incomplete person... but who isn't?... Aside from the dead that is.
1! <- (short answer)
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
I realize that it is not meant to be at all. For that reason I am not angry. I know that you are simply sincerely expressing your opinion, and I commend you for that. However, please understand that the phrase "I don't believe in atheists" indicates that I am somehow dishonest with myself or others. To imply that you know better than I what I believe is condescending.
Your "proof" of God, being limited only to your surroundings, is simply proof of your surroundings. Nothing else is proved by them save their existence. How you choose to interpret that is entirely up to you. But please do not endeavor to tell me that such "proof" is sufficient to demonstrate god, or that it in any way invalidates my belief. You will need to supply much greater evidence than that to persuade me.
You say that you respect my beliefs. Well, firstly, thank you, but I do not require your respect of my beliefs. I merely require you to respect my right to have them, which you seemingly do. I will point out that respecting someone's belief's, as you claim to, does not generally entail telling that person that they don't really believe what they say. To disagree with my beliefs is fine, and it is through such a discussion that we learn. To question my integrity or conviction is perhaps a less productive approach.
Regarding my incompleteness....did you read my post? Did I indicate, in any sense, that I felt lacking for anything? Again, it seems you believe that you know better than I about what I think and feel. And if you really mean that we are all incomplete, and we accept that I am happy in my life and you are in yours, then of what benefit is your belief to me if I am able to be equally happy without it?
What it comes down to is that if you cannot accept a basic statement on my part (i.e. that I am truly an atheist, that I have a full and enjoyed life) then it seems we will not be able to proceed with any sort of dialog. You are disabling me from the start.
Again, I am not writing this in anger. A small amount of frustration, perhaps, but that is all. I in no way want to discourage you from replying and offering your viewpoint. Just expect me to reply in kind if you hit the wrong nerve
Comment by Sho Kosugi
Shoukai
Sho is Shinto, a broad religion that embraces cleanliness of self, the support of family, and the wonderment of nature. A simple religion, one that does not have specific rules or contradictions. Things simply are, and if a god or goddess wishes to bless the mountain, well then, by all means, they shall!
But in truth, man is at the disposal of his very own imagination. So in turn, his gods must be as well! How can we speak truth when we live only in mystery? How can we have confidence in a god or goddess who remains as cloudy as the distant nebula? And even then, the nebula could be nothing more than a speck of dust!
These are trying times for a ninja. Trying to live within harmony, being discouraged by monotheists and other like minded fools of certainty and hatred. We all share one path under the Moon, and must continue to share; that much is certain, not these oral traditions which have been founded into corruption and selfishness.
"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: 'Is this real, or is this just a ride?' And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, 'Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride.' And we kill those people."
- Bill Hicks
Comment by dQuarters
...
We're all dishonest to ourselves and others. I am constantly finding out previous lies I've been told, and told myself. That's just a part of learning. You calling yourself an Atheist... sure it might be true that you have no belief of a God. The lie is the label. See, I don't believe in Christians or Muslims either. But the difference is that Atheism is not really, well, anything. Should I label myself by my lacks? Am I an A-Atheist because I don't believe in it? And you an A-A-Atheist?
You already know I mean no offense by my words, yet take offense to them. Why? It's just my belief. Which is why I commented to begin with. I did it to show you what you sound like to a believer, and further more, why being an Atheist could be construed to be taken offensively.
You believe my belief in God is me lying to myself. What's the difference?
We are all agnostic because none of us "know". But most of us (with the exception of Atheists and some real dense religious types) are also gnostic, because we seek out God and godly things. Atheist have seemingly closed that window to knowledge by their belief in no thing. And in my opinion (belief), you telling yourself and others that you believe in no God does not mean God is not inside of you, or that the window is truly closed, seeing how you're obviously too smart to stop learning.
Reason tells me one should keep an open mind. It also tells me that labels are anathema to that reason.
I didn't mean to call you a liar. At least not anymore than I'd call myself or anyone else one. And you coming out of the Atheist closet can only be 'good'.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
I see, to a point, your reluctance to use labels. However, whether one believes in labels or not, they are often a necessary shorthand for describing a position on a given topic. Sometimes it's just easier to hear Republican or Democrat, Jew or Christian than it is to delve into exactly what each and every person you encounter believes. Of course, these labels are not adequate to the task of REALLY describing what people believe, but they establish a useful starting point. Labels enable conversation to begin with basic tenets already agreed upon (usually). I understand that you find it odd to define myself by my lack of a belief. It's true, if I were to define myself that way thoroughly, it would be a very long list (I am A-leprechaunist as well, for example). I would prefer that such a label was not required, but in a society like America, which is at least 75% Christian and in which non-believers are a small minority, a label to distinguish ourselves from theists is necessary. Again, it is a shorthand for a basic position. Religion is probably the single most prevalent identifier in this country. We react accordingly.
I still do not not understand why "being an Atheist could be construed to be taken offensively"? I am not offended by your position. I would have no reason to be, unless you persisted in trying to force me into your way of thinking. Barring that, we can talk and agree to disagree all day long. What I was mildly offended by was your portrayal of my stance. But, realizing that we're dealing with benign misunderstandings and not malicious attacks, I would call that offense minimal at most. I do not, by the way, believe you to be "lying to yourself". I am quite sure that you believe what you say. Whether I think you are correct or not is entirely different from suspecting you of being disingenuous, either to yourself or to me. By and large I think most people do believe what they say they do. Their belief isn't in question, what matters is why they believe.
We are all agnostic because none of us "know".
This is true. It is almost impossible to KNOW anything to a 100% degree of certainty. However, if you mean "to know" in the common usage, then there are lots of things that we deem knowable or not knowable based on probability and observation. I do not "know" that there isn't a Volkswagon Beetle outside the orbit of Pluto in the Kuiper Belt. But with no observations to suggest otherwise, and with no reasonable hypothetical models for how that would come to be, it's reasonable to say with a high degree of certainty that I "know" that Volkswagon is not there. Could I be wrong? Possibly, yes. But until such time as evidence indicates otherwise, there is no reason to suggest that our cosmic Volkswagon exists. So it is with god. The amount of mysteries attributed to god or the gods has shrunk exponentially as our knowledge has increased. At this point, there has been nothing found scientifically that does anything except strengthen the case for a naturalistic universe. If one trusts in the scientific method (and we should, considering it has yielded all of our current technology and medicine) then why would one consider it irrelevant in this one instance?
Not wishing to consider unfounded hypotheticals is not the same as "closing the window" to knowledge. I'll be more than happy to examine claims for god and the supernatural, as soon as anyone presents any evidence that indicates such a claim might be valid. Until then, the default position is disbelief.
Atheist have seemingly closed that window to knowledge by their belief in no thing.
By belief in "nothing", what exactly do you mean? The only thing I have stated is my lack of belief in a deity. I believe in a lot of things! I believe in love, beauty and human ingenuity. I believe in charity and happiness. I would hardly call these things "nothing"! Does the fact that I believe in them without thinking that a deity is necessary to inspire them somehow render them less worthwhile?
Thanks again for the dialog. If nothing else, it forces me to reexamine my reasoning on these issues. Self-examination is never a bad thing. No apology needed, by the way. I know there was no malice intended.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
As you say, what people perceive and what is real may widely differ. That goes for science and religion. The difference between the two is that science adapts and builds upon itself, as it is founded upon continual observation and correction. Religion, on the other hand, starts with a fixed premise, and adapts the rest of what it sees to fit its worldview. They are polar opposites.
We all share one path under the Moon, and must continue to share; that much is certain, not these oral traditions which have been founded into corruption and selfishness.
Doukan desu. Arigatou gozaimasu!
Comment by dQuarters
Personally, I think belief in another man's God is the basis for some of the broadest atrocities known to history... and just plain blinkered.
I also believe that everyone not only has the right, but SHOULD have their own belief system based on rational thought. And if yours falls under the label of Atheism, so be it. Your life lead you to your beliefs and who am I to judge that?
All I want to get across is that there is inside of us a place where the laws of nature and science take no precedent. We all have that space inside, and by those who have taken to attaining this enlightenment, it is regarded as no less than a commune with "God". God is just another label, mind you. But it's one that readily means something to just about everyone.
The point is that science cannot prove everything. And some things require belief to be attained... God or not. I don't like seeing anyone rationalizing their beliefs to be apart from that. And Atheism, like Christianity or Islam or Judaism only seems to serve the opposite, and widen everyman's divide from the one mind we share. The higher states of consciousness are all repeatable outcomes... Why does science not do more to share these findings? Because business OWNs both science AND religion. And there's no money in sharing enlightenment.
So when I meet every new Atheist, I can't help but feel they are taking a reactionary stance toward history's atrocities as opposed to a new, clearer way of thinking. And it's that you Atheists are usually of sound mind that triggers my debate switch. I rarely find such an instinct when confronted with a religious type. Uphill battles usually breed quite a bit of animosity and only strengthen their resolve.
But to me, it's just another divider of people. And to hear calls that Atheists need a better group organization... ? Need a church, too? Clergy-men of the no-god? The last thing this world needs is a new religion. *cough*scientology*cough*
It's sad that in the States, Atheism is held in such low regard, but so is Islam, Homosexuality and being Mexican. So would my beliefs. So is being from anywhere or thinking anything different. Maybe science should get off it's high-and-mighty ass and figure that one out
Anyway, I'd like you to get in a last word here. So I'll shut up. This is WAY longer than I intended.
Comment by Onesnap
I'm a little late to this post, so I'm just catching up now with everything written here and the responses.
I'm really glad that you spoke up (and out) about this topic.
When I was younger I actually had people make me cry over the fact that I am not baptized (and never was as a child). I've even had people tell me I'm going to hell etc. etc. over this fact. I'm a stronger person now, and I'm proudly able to answer back that no, I was not baptized. My parents left it up to me to decide to believe in what I wanted. They made the right choice and I wish more parents did that for their kids.
Comment by Sho Kosugi
Shoukai
However, Sho must disagree with your power of science. Yes, it is the decrypter of gods, the decipherer of devils. But can your science compete with Sho's mighty ninja magic? One thinks not! Sho's powers are such to put even Master Jesus, the most powerful of black-magic manipulators, to shame!
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
The point is that science cannot prove everything.
That's absolutely true. No reason to stop looking, though. 200 years ago we'd have thought that the the things we take for granted now were impossible. 100 years ago our knowledge of our universe was infantile compared to what we know today. What science "can't prove" today is tomorrow's common knowledge. That's the great thing about science, is that it is the one way of looking at the world that demonstrably increases our understanding of it. Religion does not offer this. Personal revelation is not universal truth. Personal faith and belief does not translate beyond the individual. One's personal insight does not benefit the world at large. As a society and as a species, it is science that has, and will continue to have, the power to advance us. God has been oddly silent about it.
The higher states of consciousness are all repeatable outcomes... Why does science not do more to share these findings?
Actually, science HAS done some research on altered states of consciousness ("higher" is a misnomer that begs the question). The fact that the results are repeatable and familiar in many instances strongly favors a naturalistic cause. It implies that our brain chemistry is fairly predictable. I have never heard nor read about any "altered" state of consciousness that produced any results that could only be explained by communing with a higher being, etc. Does this mean that we will never find any result like that? Not necessarily. But at this point the evidence is to the contrary.
And to hear calls that Atheists need a better group organization... ? Need a church, too? Clergy-men of the no-god? The last thing this world needs is a new religion. *cough*scientology*cough*
I don't recall anyone suggesting the above? I think that Journeywoman mentioned something about atheists being more organized, but that it purely on a political level in order to prevent our rights from being trampled under theistic legislation. Church? Clergy? Never. We do not want it, and we could never get it. As I said, we're far to disparate a group for that sort of organization. Atheism says nothing about what people believe other than their lack of belief in god. Even if we wanted to, we'd never agree. But I don't think that's going to be an issue.
Thanks for keeping up the long conversation with me. I know that I can get a little verbose sometimes, sorry about that. At least you just have to read. My wife has to listen to me.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Thanks for dropping by
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Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
If all theists shared your view, we would have a great deal less problems in the world. We are all free to believe as we see fit. Why isn't that enough for some? What many Christians (as well as members of other religions) don't grasp is that even if religion gets more of a standing in politics and law, whose religion is it? Arguing that we need god in schools leaves open the question, whose god? Is it the Catholic's idea of god, or the Presbyterian's, or the Evangelical's, or the Mormon's or the Jew's? It can never be satisfactorily decided; whichever religion wins, the rest would lose, and I doubt that would sit well. The best course is simply to leave religion out of the political sphere and allow people to worship or not as they choose, without fear of interference from the government. If only more people understood that continuing to push for more god in the government and in the schools would most likely backfire on them spectacularly.....
Thanks so much again for your feedback!
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Sho, I loved this wisdom,
And I knew the author of your quote from the first line....Bill Hicks is sorely missed.
Now, for my view?
I suppose, if you had to call me anything, Id be agnostic? Im severly damaged by the catholic church - I cant even feel desire without feeling 'dirty' but the church is not god.
I believe in SOMETHING but I do not like to call it god, and these comments here are exactly the reason why -
The word 'god' just causes so many issues. I believe there is concioussness in the universe - but I believe more in a communal concioussness than I do a big person up there somewhere. I believe that a part of you does live on, as energy never dies, but its not at the will of 'god' or dependant on 'sins'.
I like to say all that. Really I do. And Id like to believe it. But deep down inside theres a girl in a very tight tie and knee socks whos just sure shes going to hell....
Time for the Bill Hicks dvd....
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Good ol' Catholic guilt. It does lay ahold of you, doesn't it?
Comment by katyzzz
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Just who do you think is going to convert whom? It just won't work.
There are good and bad people of all ilks and even the very bad have redeeming features and vice versa. From my point of view, end of discussion, I've said too much already.
There is as much bigotry amongst non-believers as the other way around.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Conversion? Nah, that's not my bag.
Comment by katyzzz
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Primitive religions, I suspect, which go in the guise of many denominations.
No need to answer this one. It could go on all night. That I (nor you) do not want.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
But I'm very glad (and not at all surprised) that you don't feel that way. As always, thank you for your input
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
We also have a (questionably) famous atheist in the form of John Safran. Ive recommended his stuff to Lilla but Im starting to feel it might not be something she'd appreciate. He did a series (which you can buy on dvd over the web) called 'John Safran versus God' and I really think you'd love it. He goes around the world and reviews every religion as an atheist - he never plans to change his views mind you - yet he 'reviews' the religions as if they could 'convert' him!
Hes not just some nut either, his arguments are well thought out and so hair spiltting he reminds me of...Well, you sometimes!
And the entrance sequence to the dvds where he crawls out of the ground and straightens his tie looking up at the sky with this 'come and get me' look....Oh, its hilarious!
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Theres this bit where they do mormons. They decide to get payback for everyone thats ever been woken up by them on the weekend to do it to them!
I think its a sunday morning. John and his mate dress up in the mormon garb and ride bikes. But what are they preaching? Atheisim! They even have booklets and try to convince mormons that actually, scientific evidence proves you believe in nothing.....
Its priceless Winston!
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
I remind you of him, eh? I don't look much like him, and I lack the accent...
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I concur.
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Plus, who says it's the vindictive, churlish Christian god who exists? Good lord, odds are that if there IS a god, it isn't the worst one of all...
Thanks for stopping by, I appreciate your input on this.
Comment by Dana
Thank you for this thought. The idea that I'm expected to respect all beliefs regarding religion that differ from my own has never sat well with me. That some sort of respect is necessary in matters of religion is obvious from a pragmatic standpoint, but trying to tease out where the lines are is frustrating. This helps, I think.
Dana
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Thanks very much for reading and commenting