RubySoho
Winston
Speak To Me Like I'm An Adult Please!
March 5th 2008 23:31
Something I find extremely annoying is the tendency for some people to assume that because you have the sheer audacity to have a different opinion and worldview to them then you must surely be ignorant or a child or both.
My previous post entitled “Israel Fails To Show Restraint…Again”, offended Raven who asked me if I was “anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic or pro-terrorist”. I replied that I was none of those things, that my opinions on Israel are informed and based on research as well as personal experience. This was not satisfactory to Raven who pressed on and decided that because I disagree with him I must be an ignorant child. He brought up so many issues; I will go through them one by one. Raven’s comments in quotation marks.
1. “did you visit Gaza? Did you visit the West Bank? Did you visit Lebanon? “
No I did not visit Gaza. I did visit the West Bank and met with many Palestinians and most importantly witnessed the complete lack of dignity, which Israel subjects them to. I have not revisited Lebanon since my parents left that war-ravaged country in 1977 when I was but a toddler. My opinions on Israel’s actions in Lebanon are based on what I witnessed in the West Bank and on independent sources such as Amnesty International and Medicines Sans Frontier as well as the complaints lodged by members of Israel's own Defence Force who question Israel's right to control the Occupied Territories. Many Israelis refuse to serve in the Territories Raven, did you know that?
2. “And Please, do show me on a map where exactly, ‘new Jerusalem’ is located. New Jerusalem reeks of Mormon pathos or new age mysticism”.
New Jerusalem is simply the name given to the modern part of Jerusalem, which is in Israel proper. Old Jerusalem refers to the well, old city, behind the citadel walls. No pathos or mysticism at play here at all.
3. “Just what did you witness? Did you survive a random act of violence? Did you observe and witness an unwarranted assault by the Israeli’s upon innocents? Did you personally offer aid and comfort to the wounded and injured after such an attack?”
It’s not just about specific acts of violence Raven. It’s about the systematic humiliation and oppression to which the Palestinians are subjected to everyday. That is what I witnessed. That is what moved me to tears- the ID cards, the taunts by the soldiers, the curfews, the deprivation of civil liberties.
4. “The fact that you had a fling with a guy…who…served in the Israeli Defense Force doesn’t make you an expert, knowledgeable or even more than barely conversant about the situation in the region”.
That’s right, it doesn’t, but it sure blows your accusation of bias out of the water doesn’t it?
5. “The religion and race of the Israeli's must make a difference to you because you brought up the topic of race; and secular or not, you’ve haven’t the right or knowledge to pass such a broad based judgment upon the people of Israel who most certainly are not all Jewish”.
I brought up the religion and race of the Israel merely to demonstrate that the issues of war crimes and oppression transcend religious and racial boundaries. I don’t think Israel’s actions are deplorable because it is a Jewish State but I do find it staggering that the 20th Century’s ultimate underdog can immediately set about abusing another race of people the minute they are granted their own corner of the earth. Never again. What happened to that?
6. “Over 267,000 Israeli’s lived in the West Bank in 2004, and about 88,944 Israeli’s lived in Gaza in 2004. Now these figures have changed, but what makes you believe that with those kinds of demographics that the nation of Israel and its leaders are going to callously disregard the results of wanton destruction to a viable and important part of their own population. The collateral damage to civilians harms everyone. Is there a neat and tidy way to deal with malcontents?”
Yes, they lived in illegal settlements. That’s part of the problem. They were and still are given preference to the land, which is not even a part of Israel, at the expense of the Palestinians already living there. Not content with the land they have been given, these settlers seek to ever expand the borders. One ‘neat and tidy way to deal with malcontents’ would be to dismantle these illegal settlements.
7.”The Palestinians Arabs remind me of children, where one of them beats up upon the other while crying foul and pummeling the snot out of his Arabic and Jewish siblings, with each blaming the other for starting the row.”
Well I think the information I provided in my previous post will indicate that is Israel that is doing most of the pummelling. And Israel which never stops blaming all of the woes of the region on the Palestinians.
8.“Look at Australia’s history, just when did your country quite their ethnic cleansing of aboriginals? Aren’t atrocities aimed in their direction still recurring? Where's your hue and cry about that?”
Please see my previous post entitled A Sorry State of Affairs, which deals with exactly that issue.
9. “Now, off you go. Play outside with your friends for a while, it’s almost time for your snack and nap. We’ll do some coloring when you wake up”.
Sigh. I encounter this attitude time and time again when I attempt to debate with American Conservatives. Let me just say that the fact that I disagree with you does not make me ignorant. That I have different worldview does not make me a child. Conservatives need to get it into their skulls that people are entitled to their opinions. This is mine and it is one that is shared by many others. Your belittling of me, and my supposedly infantile arguments, do not discredit me as you believe but appear to have the opposite effect. Please treat me like the adult I am which is a simple courtesy I have no trouble in paying you.
My previous post entitled “Israel Fails To Show Restraint…Again”, offended Raven who asked me if I was “anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic or pro-terrorist”. I replied that I was none of those things, that my opinions on Israel are informed and based on research as well as personal experience. This was not satisfactory to Raven who pressed on and decided that because I disagree with him I must be an ignorant child. He brought up so many issues; I will go through them one by one. Raven’s comments in quotation marks.
1. “did you visit Gaza? Did you visit the West Bank? Did you visit Lebanon? “
No I did not visit Gaza. I did visit the West Bank and met with many Palestinians and most importantly witnessed the complete lack of dignity, which Israel subjects them to. I have not revisited Lebanon since my parents left that war-ravaged country in 1977 when I was but a toddler. My opinions on Israel’s actions in Lebanon are based on what I witnessed in the West Bank and on independent sources such as Amnesty International and Medicines Sans Frontier as well as the complaints lodged by members of Israel's own Defence Force who question Israel's right to control the Occupied Territories. Many Israelis refuse to serve in the Territories Raven, did you know that?
2. “And Please, do show me on a map where exactly, ‘new Jerusalem’ is located. New Jerusalem reeks of Mormon pathos or new age mysticism”.
New Jerusalem is simply the name given to the modern part of Jerusalem, which is in Israel proper. Old Jerusalem refers to the well, old city, behind the citadel walls. No pathos or mysticism at play here at all.
3. “Just what did you witness? Did you survive a random act of violence? Did you observe and witness an unwarranted assault by the Israeli’s upon innocents? Did you personally offer aid and comfort to the wounded and injured after such an attack?”
It’s not just about specific acts of violence Raven. It’s about the systematic humiliation and oppression to which the Palestinians are subjected to everyday. That is what I witnessed. That is what moved me to tears- the ID cards, the taunts by the soldiers, the curfews, the deprivation of civil liberties.
4. “The fact that you had a fling with a guy…who…served in the Israeli Defense Force doesn’t make you an expert, knowledgeable or even more than barely conversant about the situation in the region”.
That’s right, it doesn’t, but it sure blows your accusation of bias out of the water doesn’t it?
5. “The religion and race of the Israeli's must make a difference to you because you brought up the topic of race; and secular or not, you’ve haven’t the right or knowledge to pass such a broad based judgment upon the people of Israel who most certainly are not all Jewish”.
I brought up the religion and race of the Israel merely to demonstrate that the issues of war crimes and oppression transcend religious and racial boundaries. I don’t think Israel’s actions are deplorable because it is a Jewish State but I do find it staggering that the 20th Century’s ultimate underdog can immediately set about abusing another race of people the minute they are granted their own corner of the earth. Never again. What happened to that?
6. “Over 267,000 Israeli’s lived in the West Bank in 2004, and about 88,944 Israeli’s lived in Gaza in 2004. Now these figures have changed, but what makes you believe that with those kinds of demographics that the nation of Israel and its leaders are going to callously disregard the results of wanton destruction to a viable and important part of their own population. The collateral damage to civilians harms everyone. Is there a neat and tidy way to deal with malcontents?”
Yes, they lived in illegal settlements. That’s part of the problem. They were and still are given preference to the land, which is not even a part of Israel, at the expense of the Palestinians already living there. Not content with the land they have been given, these settlers seek to ever expand the borders. One ‘neat and tidy way to deal with malcontents’ would be to dismantle these illegal settlements.
7.”The Palestinians Arabs remind me of children, where one of them beats up upon the other while crying foul and pummeling the snot out of his Arabic and Jewish siblings, with each blaming the other for starting the row.”
Well I think the information I provided in my previous post will indicate that is Israel that is doing most of the pummelling. And Israel which never stops blaming all of the woes of the region on the Palestinians.
8.“Look at Australia’s history, just when did your country quite their ethnic cleansing of aboriginals? Aren’t atrocities aimed in their direction still recurring? Where's your hue and cry about that?”
Please see my previous post entitled A Sorry State of Affairs, which deals with exactly that issue.
9. “Now, off you go. Play outside with your friends for a while, it’s almost time for your snack and nap. We’ll do some coloring when you wake up”.
Sigh. I encounter this attitude time and time again when I attempt to debate with American Conservatives. Let me just say that the fact that I disagree with you does not make me ignorant. That I have different worldview does not make me a child. Conservatives need to get it into their skulls that people are entitled to their opinions. This is mine and it is one that is shared by many others. Your belittling of me, and my supposedly infantile arguments, do not discredit me as you believe but appear to have the opposite effect. Please treat me like the adult I am which is a simple courtesy I have no trouble in paying you.
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Comment by AmyHuang
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Politics, religion and race are always sensitive issues, and those who do write about it will get attacked, no matter which side you write for. Ruby, it's good you are addressing each and every question thrown at you in a mature way. There are other people who would have just retaliated the attacks with equally harsh words.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by RubySoho
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I admit I have fallen into that trap before and I will not allow that to happen on this blog.
Comment by Neems
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I like the way you have tackled this as well Ruby. Even if you don't agree with someone's opinions, they are entitled to have them and in turn, you are entitled to air your own.
Some people, usually the very passionate or involved, see the world and it's issues in black and white without realising it's actually a million shades of gray.
Comment by Shan Jayaweera
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Trying to comment on the middle east is very much like, well the situation in the middle east - fraught with peril and the most balanced reporting on both sides tends to be hijacked by extremists from the other. For the record I think your report was balanced. Thi is the internet and we have to live with freedom of speech which I have always thought means allowing loud mouth morons to be loud mouth morons - run with the punches and know you are doing the right thing
When you have a spare minute please check out my youtube blogs
www.watchingyoutube.com
www.videotoes.com
let me know what you think!
(thanks for your time)
Comment by tlcorbin
March 5th 2008 23:31
Something I find extremely annoying is the tendency for some people to assume that because you have the sheer audacity to have a different opinion and worldview to them then you must surely be ignorant or a child or both.
What you are demonstrating is the aggressive boldness and unmitigated effrontery side of audacity rather than anything remotely fearless and daring, if your opines were truly your own, I could respect them, but what I take exception to is that I suspect you are parroting popular and unconsidered dogma; this mindset constantly keeps the region in turmoil and you are fostering that mindset.
My previous post entitled “Israel Fails To Show Restraint…Again”, offended Raven who asked me if I was “anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic or pro-terrorist”. I replied that I was none of those things, that my opinions on Israel are informed and based on research as well as personal experience. My umbrage is with the fact that you did not present a balanced report, one that cites the errors and provocations on the part of the Palestinians, who are made up of both Arab and Jews; they’ve allowed radical elements to usurp their peaceful co-existence with Israelis a population made up of both Arab and Jews as well. This was not satisfactory to Raven who pressed on and decided that because I disagree with him I must be an ignorant child. A mature person considers a topic from all sides and reasonably considers that their own prejudices are injected into their arguments and further consider the impact those prejudices will contribute to their intellectual bias. I didn’t see that demonstrated in your post. Nor did you inform the readers that you may be predisposed to a slanted perspective as a result of your family’s refugee status. That’s dishonest and a critical point.
He brought up so many issues; I will go through them one by one. Raven’s comments in quotation marks.
1. “did you visit Gaza? Did you visit the West Bank? Did you visit Lebanon? “
No I did not visit Gaza. I did visit the West Bank and met with many Palestinians and most importantly witnessed the complete lack of dignity, which Israel subjects them to. How long were you there and what were you doing? Are you fluent in the language and its nuances? Because without speaking the local dialects, how do you know people were treated poorly? Did they communicate their disgrace with body language? I have not revisited Lebanon since my parents left that war-ravaged country in 1977 when I was but a toddler. This isn’t a trivial point; you deliberately omitted this to mislead others. My opinions on Israel’s actions in Lebanon are based on what I witnessed (What did you witness and for how long? And, again, do you speak the language enough to understand what was being said in general conversations?) in the West Bank and on independent sources such as Amnesty International and Medicines Sans Frontier as well as the complaints lodged by members of Israel’s own Defence Force who question Israel’s right to control the Occupied Territories. There are malcontents everywhere, but it doesn’t mean that they are well informed or that their actions are justified or warranted. Many Israelis refuse to serve in the Territories Raven, did you know that? There are conscientious objectors in most standing armies, and specifically, yes I do know that.
2. “And Please, do show me on a map where exactly, ‘new Jerusalem’ is located. New Jerusalem reeks of Mormon pathos or new age mysticism”.
New Jerusalem is simply the name given to the modern part of Jerusalem, which is in Israel proper. Old Jerusalem refers to the well, old city, behind the citadel walls. No pathos or mysticism at play here at all. What you said is that you lived in new Jerusalem as though it were a battle zone. If you weren’t on vacation, why weren’t you in the older areas, getting down and dirty, to learn about the plight of the people and providing assistance?
3. “Just what did you witness? Did you survive a random act of violence? Did you observe and witness an unwarranted assault by the Israeli’s upon innocents? Did you personally offer aid and comfort to the wounded and injured after such an attack?”
It’s not just about specific acts of violence Raven. It’s about the systematic humiliation and oppression to which the Palestinians are subjected to everyday. That is what I witnessed. That is what moved me to tears- the ID cards, the taunts by the soldiers, the curfews, the deprivation of civil liberties. How many specific acts of humiliation did you witness harm anyone as much as a single rocket attack from Gaza and its Palestinians? Or from the explosion from a suicide bomber's self detonation in a crowded market ?
4. “The fact that you had a fling with a guy…who…served in the Israeli Defense Force doesn’t make you an expert, knowledgeable or even more than barely conversant about the situation in the region”.
That’s right, it doesn’t, but it sure blows your accusation of bias out of the water doesn’t it? No, it doesn’t, it just enforces the need to focus upon your motivation and malevolent angst directed towards Israel which manifests itself in the dogmatism of your posts.
5. “The religion and race of the Israeli’s must make a difference to you because you brought up the topic of race; and secular or not, you’ve haven’t the right or knowledge to pass such a broad based judgment upon the people of Israel who most certainly are not all Jewish”.
I brought up the religion and race of the Israel merely to demonstrate that the issues of war crimes and oppression transcend religious and racial boundaries. You fail to acknowledge the demographic makeup of the region and misrepresent the populace distribution of Israel and negate the fact that the situation is more akin to a civil war than anything else; but you choose to compare Israeli’s to war criminals. What makes you believe that the state of Israel finds it prudent to wage war on itself? And how would you deal with criminals who disguise themselves as patriots to further their own interests. I don’t think Israel’s actions are deplorable because it is a Jewish State but I do find it staggering that the 20th Century’s ultimate underdog can immediately set about abusing another race of people the minute they are granted their own corner of the earth. Never again. What happened to that? Check your history, Israel was immediately attacked in 1948 after being formed in 1947. You can Google this for yourself. You’re saying that they didn’t have the right to protect the Arabs and Jewish populace of Israel?
6. “Over 267,000 Israeli’s lived in the West Bank in 2004, and about 88,944 Israeli’s lived in Gaza in 2004. Now these figures have changed, but what makes you believe that with those kinds of demographics that the nation of Israel and its leaders are going to callously disregard the results of wanton destruction to a viable and important part of their own population. The collateral damage to civilians harms everyone. Is there a neat and tidy way to deal with malcontents?”
Yes, they lived in illegal settlements. That’s part of the problem. They were and still are given preference to the land, which is not even a part of Israel, at the expense of the Palestinians already living there. Not content with the land they have been given, these settlers seek to ever expand the borders. One ‘neat and tidy way to deal with malcontents’ would be to dismantle these illegal settlements. How can they be an illegal immigrant in their own country? When the Palestinians joined the others that attacked Israel in 1948, they lost, to the winner goes the spoils. No, the Israeli’s tried to set aside a state for them and were bombed for that, how much would you have them suffer?
7.”The Palestinians Arabs remind me of children, where one of them beats up upon the other while crying foul and pummeling the snot out of his Arabic and Jewish siblings, with each blaming the other for starting the row.”
Well I think the information I provided in my previous post will indicate that is Israel that is doing most of the pummelling. And Israel which never stops blaming all of the woes of the region on the Palestinians. Israel has prosecuted the malcontents and thugs that perpetuate the conflict with a lot more civility and restraint than they (the terrorists) demonstrate towards the general population of Israel.
8.“Look at Australia’s history, just when did your country quite their ethnic cleansing of aboriginals? Aren’t atrocities aimed in their direction still recurring? Where’s your hue and cry about that?”
Please see my previous post entitled A Sorry State of Affairs, which deals with exactly that issue. I have.
9. “Now, off you go. Play outside with your friends for a while, it’s almost time for your snack and nap. We’ll do some coloring when you wake up”. When you act as a child, you can expect to be treated as a child. Sadly, you can’t even conceive of yourself as a bigot, let alone recognize that you demonstrate it and wear it as a self righteous badge of honor.
Sigh. I encounter this attitude time and time again when I attempt to debate with American Conservatives. Ah the long suffering suffragette, being picked on by a mean American Conservative. That’s crap and I am not a conservative. Let me just say that the fact that I disagree with you does not make me ignorant. That was demonstrated but never implied. That I have different worldview does not make me a child. Your naive world view is childlike. Conservatives need to get it (get what? My thick non-conservative skull is having difficulty reasoning with your unveiled and contemptuous attempt to dismiss me and my argument.) into their skulls that people are entitled to their opinions. This is mine and it is one that is shared by many others. Your belittling of me, and my supposedly infantile arguments, do not discredit me as you believe but appear to have the opposite effect. Please treat me like the adult I am which is a simple courtesy I have no trouble in paying you. I don’t want or need your respect; what I want is for you to be honest-you are pro-Palestinian, pro-Lebanon, pro-Arab and anti-Israel which makes your argument hypocritical. Sadly, don’t really don’t know what you are talking about or recognize the possibility that your thought processes aren’t fully your own, but have been imprinted and influenced by outside sources with agendas that are obvious to me.
Now, I have some nice buckets and shovels; tea in the sand?
Raven
Comment by tlcorbin
"If only the Palestinians chose to cease their pointless and indiscriminate firing of rockets and missiles against hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians, the entire region would return to a normal routine in which Palestinians and Israelis could once again enjoy their daily lives," the Israeli ministry stated. "As stated to these organizations time and time again by the Israeli government, they should point their criticism towards the Hamas terrorist organization that controls the Gaza Strip, and not against the State of Israel."
No specific individual or group is guilt free in the region; generations of conflict has manifested a hate bias that has been pandemic. Grievances on all sides have a valid roots, and tend to perpetuate the warring and fuel even more hatred.
What was stated above is exquisitely simple, peace starts when the rockets stop then all other matters can be resolved in an atmosphere of relative calm and safety for non combatants.
My point in this exercise is this: two valid viewpoints can generate controversy and get expanded from the petty to the critical, a flash point where reason takes leave of the room and raw motions take over. This can be initiated with something as silly by treating someone as a child, and picking apart an opinion. It's easier to attack than to defend in a debate; and much worse when lethal weapons are the tools of choice to make a point.
Thank you for being the lady that you are.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
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Let me assure you that my opinions are indeed my own. That others share them does not make them less so.
Comment by tlcorbin
These folks are embroiled in a battle over ideologies that were birthed and nurtured with language. It is truly heartbreaking for me. BTW, I posted an extension of this theme: Peace Starts When the Rockets Stop.
You're welcome to have a whack or two at me there if you choose.
Raven