RubySoho
Winston
Top Ten Reasons I Don’t Believe In God.
May 5th 2008 11:40
10. MIRACLES
The Bible is full of them. So is the Koran. Moses parting the Red Sea, Lazarus coming back from the dead, Jesus walking on water, Jonah surviving a stint in the belly of a whale, Lot’s wife turning ]into a pillar of salt, illiterate Mohammed suddenly being able to read. It seems like those ancient desert folk could barely breathe without tripping over a miracle. Where are our miracles? Why has God gotten so shy all of a sudden? Now that his three “great” monotheistic religions have permeated into every corner of the globe, now that the human race has made a right mess of everything, now that we need him more than ever, why has he gotten the worst case of stage fright ever known to man?
Come on God, just one. Just one miracle is all I ask. It doesn’t have to be a big one like getting pregnant despite the fact I haven’t had sex since Kevin Rudd won the election, but an teency, weency, little one would do. Like not getting fat even though I’ve eaten white bread every day for two weeks. By the way, I am typing this with my right hand only as I fondle my own newly arrived love handles with my left.
9. OVERWHELMING LACK OF EVIDENCE.
Jews believe the Old Testament is the word of God because the OT says it is the word of God.
Christians weren’t happy with the OT on its own so they added the New Testament and believe that is the final word of God because the NT says it is the final word of God.
Mohammed was rather pissed off that Arabs were left out of the equation so he came up with the Koran and Muslims believe that is the final, final word of God because the Koran says it is the final, final word of God.
But you know, if we could find just a tiny shred, a scrap, a wee little crumb of evidence anywhere that any of the events in those books happened the way they say it happened, they will have me. I will be sold. I will believe.
Anyone? Anywhere? Anything?
8. REASON FORCES ME NOT TO.
Sorry Winston, but I did tell I was going to steal that line one day didn’t I? For Winston’s excellent post on atheism click on this Really Long Link
How can I, an adult, educated and, I would like to believe, reasonably intelligent woman believe that a perfect deity created me from the rib of another human being? For no reason other than he felt like it? How am I to believe that this happened only a few thousand years ago? And that I, as a woman am still paying the price for the sins of another woman that was supposedly committed all those years ago?
And how am I to believe that this deity is watching me. Everyday. Every little thing I do. Watching, keeping track so that one day He may judge me and cast me into the eternal pit of hell and damnation for committing the very sins which he created me to commit.
I can’t. And that’s all there is to it. I just can’t. Because it makes absolutely no sense at all. It requires more than faith or suspension of disbelief- it requires self-delusion.
7. HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF
How can Mary be “ever-virgin” when the Bible says Jesus had four brothers as well as an undisclosed amount of sisters (Matthew 13:55-57)?
If Jesus was so loving and forgiving then why did he rudely tell a Caananite woman who pleaded with him for an exorcism that he would not waste his time helping a non-Jew (Matthew 15 21-28)?
Is he a “God of peace” (Romans 15:33) or a “God of war” (Exodus 15:3)?
Is Joseph the son of Jacob (Matthew 1:16) or the son of Heli (Luke 3:23)?
Is God “good to all: his tender mercies are over all his works. (Psalms 145:1) or does He “dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them”. (Jer 13:14)?
Is Jesus the equal of God as in “I and my Father are one (John 10:30) or does Jesus “go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I”. (John 14:28).
Yes, there are many, many more, but quite frankly I don’t think I have the time and patience to list them nor, I suspect, do you to read them.
6. CAIN AND ABEL
The Bible and Koran both say that all humankind is directly delineated from Adam and Eve. Upon being booted out of Eden, Eve bore many children, her two eldest being Cain and Abel. According to these books, after killing his brother Abel in a fit of jealous rage, Cain wandered into the wilderness and magically found himself a wife. But where did she come from? She is not one of Adam and Eve’s children. SO WHERE DID SHE COME FROM?
This is not a trivial point ladies and gentlemen. If Cain’s wife was not the offspring of Adam and Eve, then it means that not all humans are descendents of Adam and Eve which means the whole concept of the Garden of Eden, the fall from grace, the inheritance of original sin is a total crock. The idea that the human race are all natural born sinners, the notion that all our suffering is born out of the fact that Adam and Eve betrayed God is complete and utter rubbish. IT NEVER HAPPENED.
5. BERTRAND RUSSELL’S CELESTIAL TEAPOT AND THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER
Theists often seem to be of the opinion that they hold some sort of trump card when they gloat, “Well you can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, so nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah”. Whilst my first reaction to this infantile argument is an overwhelming desire to punch them in their smug little mouths, I do try to retain some sort of decorum and tell them, “Well we can’t really prove that anything doesn’t exist can we?”
One of my favourite atheists, the British philosopher Bertrand Russell. came up with the Teapot Hypothesis, which like the God Hypothesis, cannot actually be disproved:
“If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time”.
In the same vein, The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a present day deity first brought to our attention by American student Bobby Henderson in 2005. Bobby was alarmed that the Kansas School Board was considering approving the teaching Intelligent Design alongside evolution and wrote them an open letter requesting the teaching of Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, as it was the basis of his own belief system. Bobby concludes:
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence”
The Kansas School Board nixed the teaching of Intelligent Design. Thank the FSM’s noodly appendage for Bobby Henderson everybody!
For a good read on The Flying Spaghetti Monster visit Morgan Bell’s blog via this Really Long Link
4. SMARTER PEOPLE THAN I
Here is a selection of quotes regarding God and religion from some of the most brilliant minds that ever were:
Albert Einstein: “I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it”.
“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve”
Thomas Jefferson: “The Bible is not my book. Nor Christianity my religion”.
Bertrand Russell: “I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its Churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world”.
“So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence”.
Frederich Nietzsche: “Is man one of God's blunders? Or is God one of man's blunders?”
“I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.”
‘
Pierre Simon LaPlace: I have no need of that hypothesis”.
Seneca the Younger: “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful”.
Marie Curie: “Pierre belonged to no religion and I did not practice any”.
3. THE ENCYCLPAEDIA BRITANNICA
When I was growing up we, like every self-respecting wog family in the country, had the full 28 volume set of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. Plus the atlas and two(!) volume dictionary. It was proudly displayed in the living room wall unit, much to my mother’s consternation, as it meant she had to relegate her collection of non-stick, Margaret Fulton-approved, Bessemer pots and pans to the much smaller and decidedly less impressive cabinet in the un-renovated kitchen.
I grew up in a fairly religious Muslim family. My father tried to instil in us a good knowledge not only of Islam but also Christianity and Judaism (ah those intolerant Muslims huh?). One way in which he chose to do this was to gather the family around the telly every year when Cecile B DeMille’s The Ten Commandments would be polluting, I mean gracing, the airwaves. Growing up, I accepted the story as fact. But that was before the Encyclopaedia Britannica entered our lives. After watching the movie one particular year, I decided to see what it had to say on the matter of the parting of the Red Sea.
Well, according to this tome, Moses did not lead the Israelites to safety by parting the Red Sea, but by ushering them through the much more hospitable marshes known as The Sea of Reeds. Of course, this conflicts with the Biblical and Koranic versions. I read both, many times. I scratched my head. I lay awake in bed at night. I thought. I pondered. I wondered.
At the end of the day, I just decided that The Encyclopaedia made more sense.
I was 12 years old.
2. DARWIN’S THEORY OF EVOLUTION BY NATURAL SELECTION
Now I’m not going to bore you all with any kind of analysis of one of the most enlightening essays and theories in the history of mankind. I’m pretty sure most of you, and hope that all of you, are familiar with Darwin’s amazing discovery. Suffice it say, it is not “just a theory”, it has been observed and no more thorough explanation for the origin of the human race has ever, ever, EVER been out forward. Now, it may well be that Darwin and pretty much every scientist worth their salt since, was wrong about evolution. But until someone comes up with a more reasonable, logical and observable explanation, I’m holding onto this one thanks.
1. HE HATES WOMEN
But don’t take my word for it. Let the man, sorry ‘God’, speak for himself:
From the Bible:
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner"
(I Timothy 2:11-14).
"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).
"Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23).
"If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her saying, 'I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' …and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
"A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away" (Ecclesiasticus 25:25).
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God…A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).
From the Koran:
4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females,
4:15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands.
2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.
Ruby
p.s Did anyone else notice that the Bible is actually way more misogynistic than the Koran?
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Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
In all fairness to theists, frequently the ultimate justification for their belief comes down to personal revelation. They've had some type of feeling or experience that convinces them that God exists, and they go from there. That is a perfectly fine reason for an individual to believe, but it is a very poor reason for anyone else to believe. More than any of the other reasons out there, I think this is the biggest sticking point between theists and atheists. Atheists have either not had any type of experience like that, or they have had them but attribute it to some natural cause rather than god (I'd put myself in the second category).
This is what makes it so hard to debate this issue. You throw out a bunch of good info (as you've done here) and say, "OK, here are some valid reasons why religion doesn't make sense" and what you get back is often "you just don't get it" or "you just have to have faith" or some other type of special pleading. It is too often an exercise in frustration. Ideally, we could all just agree to disagree and move on, but that doesn't seem to be the case either.....
Very good article with very good points!
(ps. the link you provided is broken......)
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
And yes, these are just some of the reasons I personally don't believe. Other people can believe what they like, but next time a female Jehovah's Witness comes to my door I'm going to rattle off about how much God hates her and see how she can possible defend him. Should be fun.
Link above is fixed.
Comment by D. Armenta
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They're both pretty misogynistic. The Koran said that "..perfidy lurks within ( women's) clothing.." along with a lot of other stuff like that.
I guess it's kind of a backward compliment. Women, along with snakes, sharks, and other beautiful but dangerous-when-messed-with creatures, have long been the victims of myth and misunderstanding.
Me, I've always gotten along fine with snakes and sharks..but then again, I respect their space.
As for debating the existence of an anthropomorphic deity, I don't go there anymore. If I want that kind of entertainment, I can always holler down a toilet.
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
I love how men will always insist on blaming women for the fact they find us attractive and want to fuck us.
Not intending on debating God's existence either...just preaching to the converted probably...or maybe giving the fence sitters something to think about.
Thanks for swinging by.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
The book is fictional (about Arthur) but Marion was a historian - her book the 'Firebrand' about Troy is full of historical accuracy. 'Mists of Avalon' deals with how cristianity rose, and had to cut off the head of the religion before it. The only way to gain power was to use the fire and brimstone - if you celebrate life and screw each other with abandon(which was very effective at widening the gene pool) you will go to this horrible hell place. Listen to us instead - we know the way.
And so begins the path....
Comment by samaritan
Fringe Faith
Just a couple of points I want to comment on. Firstly miracles. I believe that miracles do still happen. Sure, they may not be things that we can find no natural explanation for. But then that might be true of the miracles in the bible also. It's just that the people writing the bible didn't have that explanation available to them. I do think that God does intervene in our lives - but he rarely does so by breaking the laws of nature.
Like many things in the bible, the way that the people writing the bible saw events may not be an entirely accurate account of what really happened. There is evidence to show that there was a flood in the Middle East that could be the flood where Noah sailed his famous ark. It didn't cover the whole world. But if Noah was a real person, it would have seemed that way to him. He didn't have the knowledge to tell people that the flood only extended so far and so far. So he told of what he saw - it covered the whole earth - even if that's not literally what happened.
On the Virgin Mary. The idea of her as ever-virgin is not even biblical. It was dreamt up by some Catholic and then became standard Catholic doctrine. Most Protestants do not believe that Mary stayed a virgin. They believe instead that she was a virgin when she became pregnant, then went on to lose her virginity and have a family with Joseph. Making Joseph the only man to have ever had sex with a virgin mother. I can just imagine that conversation.
Mary: Joseph, will it hurt?
Joseph: Not anymore than giving birth did.
I think that many people refuse to believe in God because they think that, in order to do so, they have to leave their intelligence at the door of the church. But this is only true is we equate faith in God with a strict literalist interpretation of the bible. (And I'm talking only of the bible here because I haven't read the Koran. Keep meaning to, but haven't gotten around to it yet.) Many Christians would have us believe that that's the only way to believe God - and so they put people off believing in God altogether.
I don't believe in a literalist interpretation of the bible. For a start, the people writing the bible would not have thought of their stories in this way. Even Jesus used parables a lot. I see the bible as a people's account of their experience with God. That experience of God and the way they saw and wrote about him was seen through the lens of their culture and their time. It was influenced by their culture, their misconceptions, their lack of understanding and their prejudices.
This is not to say that that experience wasn't real. I believe it was. And I believe that the bible has a lot to teach us about God. But it's going to have inaccuracies, errors and things that we just can't tolerate now. It was written by a different culture to us. That doesn't make God any less real.
Comment by Ahmed
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In Islam Eve bore four children who were on opposite ends of the genetic spectrum, two sets of male/female twins. The older set was seen were prettier and more intelligent than the younger brother and sister. The older brother married the younger city and the younger brother married the older sister.
So it goes.
Aaaalssoooooo, Einstein wasn't an atheist, he did believe in god.
Comment by Brenton
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Causative?
Comment by oz4travel@hotmail.com
I wish I could be a fly on the wall when our chiildren's children's children say, "Can you beleive that our forefathers believed in religion, go and all that bullshit".
When people ask me what religion I am, I say "Ombi religion". All other religions force one into a box, a tiny one like a match box actually!
OmbiYour text goes hereYour text goes here
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
in a word- yes.
Ahmed- I included the story of Cain and Abel as I've actually discussed this with a Muslim who knows more about the Koran than I do. And quite frankly he was stumped- couldn't work out who this woman was that Cain was said to have married. Does the Koran specify it was his sister?
But then, this discussion was with an Alawite Muslim and I know other Muslims don't consider them to be Muslim at all. Perhaps I should have made that distinction.
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
I can't accept a god who thinks having a girl is a loss, that women are the source of wickedness, that girls who have sex ought to be stoned. So you see, even if he did exist, i would still have to reject him. Not to demean your own faith, as I have already told you, I enjoy reading your thoughts and comments on your approach to the subject.
But your comments here
are problematic because even if Noah did not know- God did! Why didn't God impart such knowledge onto humans sooner? to me that is just further proof that the Bible was just written by men who were tying to make sense of the world around them. yes, there may be a semblance of truth in there, but it has been hugely distorted.
Kleo- I will endeavour to source that book, thanks for the recommendation.
Ombi- Ombi religion? Tell me more...
Comment by oz4travel@hotmail.com
This is what my friend Harry wrote to me just a moment ago:
"Ombi, I have a meeting at 4.30 across the way and now He decides to open up the Heavens!!??
Or maybe it was just the coincidental timing of a moist low presure system. I just don't know."
Ombi religion....aaah, that is profound! It's the beleif in myself, and it's also an attempt to not have my big self shoved in little boxes. Don't like labels, and don't like boxes.
For lovers of social justice, check out our blog:
www.veryitchyfeet.blogspot.com
The blogs on Cuba, Cambodia, El SAlvador and Nicaragua are particularly good. Just came bacj from a trip and my writing has a social edge....well more of a backdrop than edge.
Comment by samaritan
Fringe Faith
Fair enough. A lot of people take that approach - Christians and atheists. Fundamentalist Christians choose to accept everything, rather than rejecting God. You choose to reject God, rather than accept everything. It's not my approach to the bible, but I can understand why you think that way.
I don't know. I don't know why God does things. But maybe it's just because we need to learn things ourselves rather than having that knowledge imparted from on high.
I have two kids. I didn't take them aside on the first day they were born and tell them everything I know about life. Even if I did, they wouldn't have been able to understand it. Speaking of my kids, they often write things about me at school. Sometimes they get the information wrong. It doesn't mean that they don't have a relationship with me. It just means they have limited understanding and - as humans - they make errors.
So should God have ensured that everything written in the bible was completely accurate? I really don't know how he could have done that without turning the people who wrote the bible into robots. Kind of like programming a computer. I don't think God would have wanted to do that.
Samaritan
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Well thought out, well researched and well presented.
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Very thoughtful post. and I agree with the well researched comments.
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Although I also have a theory of my own. As part of my high school religion project (nerdy, I know) I did a research on world religions. I researched into old stories of Christianity (the bible), Islam (the Koran), Taoism and Buddhism. All their 'beginnings' sound incredibly similar, all their 'gods/buddhas/the higher being' begin with a man with a beard wearing a robe holding a staff/bamboo/walking stick.
Could it be? That they are all the same PERSON? And perhaps this person is not really a divine being either, it was just someone nice that performed some good deeds wherever he/she went, and as different cultures pass down different stories about this person, they get exaggerated, mis-informed and often, as cultures go, interpreted differently simply because each culture sees things differently. (For example, white signifies 'Pure' in the western cultures but means death in some Asian cultures - such differences can create very different stories!)
So really, we are all fighting for something that doesn't exist? I don't want to put a finger on it yet, but it's highly possible.
Comment by Cheryl J
Rhythmatism
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Anyway, after some consideration my curious little mind got to wondering about your point number 6, so I asked the local priest the question, "If Adam and Eve were the first and only people and Cain and Abel were their sons, who did they marry if Eve was the only woman? Well he couldn't answer so told me I was an evil little girl for saying such things. So here I was eleven, grieving for my dead father and feeling lost and a priest tells me I'm evil because he was too stupid to formulate a good response. I stopped going to church and now only go if someone is getting married, christened or buried.
I think all of your points are valid. I have vacillated back and forth from belief to non-belief over the years but now I think I would class myself more as agnostic than athiest. I have a strong aversion to religion itself.
Comment by lachlan
MYSTRO MUSIC
As I started to read all the quotes from the bible about women my skin started to crawl. For me I don't know how people can feel comfortable with believing what the bible, Koran or any other religious text says. I also don't get why people think we should believe something that was written thousands of years ago, why not someone write something now that talks about life today and why don't other people believe that. Fantastic post Thanks for your words.
Lachlan
Comment by Nomad
Awesome Food
I have a few theories for jesus-
Water into wine-
Jesus was the only one at the party that wasn't blind drunk and everyone was like 'man we're all out of wine there's only water left', then jesus was like 'dude, this one has wine in it'... and then they were like 'man did you see that? jesus friggin turned that water into wine'
then everyone started chanting 'JESUS, JESUS JESUS' and he just went along with it, cos no one likes to argue with drunk guys.
Walking on water-
everyone was drunk again and forgot it was low tide and jesus went for a splish splash in the water and everyone was like 'dude, jesus is friggin walkin on water...
feeding the 2000 4000 whatever i cant remember how many-
there were say ten people there and jesus just made sure everyone got a bite and then someone tells another guy the jesus feed like fifteen people and then that guy embellishes the story some more and says it was like fifty and so on until two towns over they think jesus is running some kind of kick arse restaurant...
and they were drunk too.
nomad
Comment by Nomad
Awesome Food
virgin mary-
mary got drunk one night and got knocked up by some random guy...
Comment by Cheryl J
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Comment by Joseph R. Terrazzino
GOOVIES
Very nicely thought out. The Seneca quote is excellent. Yeah, I often wonder what the real God thinks of the god man has painted him out to be.
God hates gays, women, non-Christians, and rebellious children. But remember . . . He loves you.
Unless you cross Him. Then your blood shall run in rivers and stain his teeth and . . . well, anyway. We're all his little children.
Long live Dexter!
Comment by tlcorbin
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10. MIRACLES: The bible is a transliterated series of books, but not all of the books; if you’ve never seen an airplane, a submarine or ship and one appeared, seemingly from out of nowhere that would seem like a miracle. Much of what is going on in the word would appear miraculous to our great grandfathers. So, unless you were there, as a witness at the event, how can you be so arrogant to say that, naw, it didn’t happen. Language is a piss poor tool for communicating abstract concepts, but it’s the best we've got, for now. So, this is very weak, you’ve done more than take a little literary license in interpreting what you’ve read with prejudicial eyes.
9. OVERWHELMING LACK OF EVIDENCE: Even in chaos there is order; there is a mind numbing amount of universes in space, dimensions, parallel and adjunct, most still resonating at the sub atomic level with the sentient wave energy of creation, we don’t know yet, the extent to which life exists elsewhere-so lets not climb out of our primordial swamp and declare ourselves the only intelligent life in existence until all of the data is in. This is a sad and ego driven argument.
8. REASON FORCES ME NOT TO: Perhaps the first humans were genetically engineered, that isn’t beyond the scope of possibilities and what do you do with that information then? You’re reasoning is poisoned with personal vendetta. You’re pissed at god for what is for us an obscured reason, and are trying to set up a paradox, if you exist, build a mountain you can’t tear down. Doesn’t wash.
7. HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF: Most philosophical arguments do seem contradictory if not taken entirely in the context and frame work within which they were presented. If you don’t accept or believe these words as strongly as you suggest, don’t use them to support your argument. If I were to review a collection of your comments, and blogs, and then selectively use fragments of them out of context, I can prove you to be a maniacal witch-which I know that you aren’t. So, eh, no good.
6. CAIN AND ABEL: How can you not believe in god or his transliterated words and then use them to defend your argument,. That isn’t rational, either you believe or you don’t. This contradiction doesn’t work.
5. BERTRAND RUSSELL’S CELESTIAL TEAPOT AND THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER: Conversely, you can’t prove the validity of his argument either, properly massaged his spaghetti powered teapot will crap out Munsters. Circular argument that goes nowhere.
4. SMARTER PEOPLE THAN I: For crying out loud, are you kidding me, being smarter doesn’t make anyone an assumed expert on any topic unless you choose to surrender your ability to consider that topic on your own; we all make mistakes. This list is meaningless and selective.
3. THE ENCYCLPAEDIA BRITANNICA: A collection of studies that aren’t always accurate and whose relevance is subjective to your argument only by sheer weight of verbiage and selective use.
2. DARWIN’S THEORY OF EVOLUTION BY NATURAL SELECTION: Darwin’s theory is just that, an unsubstantiated theory; it only works after creation has been called in to play. Forget using Darwin, it has only limited application and you’re stretching the boundaries.
1. HE HATES WOMEN: The bible as a transliterated book, can be read in such a manner as to prove any argument; but then so can the Jewish Talmud, and Tanakh, the Islamic Koran, the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta, the Hindu Vedanta ~ Bhagvad Gita, the Mein Kampf of Nazi Germany or even Tolstoy’s War and Peace can all be massaged enough that even though it is a cow, it’ll quack like a duck. So, nope this doesn’t wash.
Ruby, although your arguments might overwhelm others, much of it is the usual stuff. Is your real bitch with god or is it with religion? I recognize the burning anger, but you may be asking the wrong questions in your search for a right answer. It's a thought. No need to replay to this, I don't really care about being right or wrong on the subject; I am content with my level of ignorance. But, if you'd like to seriously learn more about this topic, I would too.
So, redefine you contentions and lets have at them.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
Johnny and Lachlan- kind words much appreciated. Thanks for reading my own humble opinion.
Louie- Thanks also. In the matter of God v religion, the god I am addressing is the one described in the Bible and Koran. I know many people have an entirely different concept of God.
Nomad- yeah, I am thinking that those ancient folk were probably just a bunch of drunkards and stoners. Probably none bigger than Jesus himself.
Joseph- Your comments bring up one of the biggest problems I have with God- ie he loves us but is quite content to put us through the most agonising pain that will last for all eternity if we don't worship him precisely as he wishes to be worshipped.
hmmm. No thanks. As Billy Joel sang " I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints"...
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
I like how you can pinpoint an exact moment when it no longer made sense to you. Many other people also have a defining moment such as yours. My own was the Britannica incident at my point three. That kind of killed my faith...although i somehow became involved with the Witnesses a few years later, don't ask me how...oh well, like you said, back and forth, back and forth. But no going back now, not a chance.
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
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Causative?
That's one helluva election result!
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
Raven, this comments section is cluttered enough already. I will blog my response to you shortly. Thanks for swinging by.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Samaritan, I like how you think mate.
Go Louie!
Amy, Ive been saying that for years! The similarities are right there.
Cheryl
Nomad Kick arse! Thats the kind of attitude needed when reading the Bible! I did a post down that line!
Just wanted to say, I love discussion!
Comment by postmoderncritic
Postmodern Critic
Daily Inspirations
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Lol, we still have the Encyclopaedia Britannica lining the shelves of our living room library (though I don't like the word 'wog', mainly because of its sound)! I've had similarly meaningful experiences with it, only in my case it was looking up 'homosexuality', to find a nice, calming torrent of information which was a relief after the nasty attitudes of my parents whenever the issue came up.
If it helps, I haven't had sex since mid-2006... I've been more than usually picky!
My parents are both atheists and raised me to be one too, and I have never felt the need to create vast resources of guilt or find ways my behaviour could be interpreted as 'sinful'. Hey, at least my parents got one thing right, lol!
Thanks for the Bible and Koran quotes, that was deeply disturbing, but informative!
Comment by Joanne Fedler
Secret Writers Business
Great to read something from an intelligent woman, even though I disagree with you about God.
Just to keep it short:
Religion is not God. Don't confuse them. Religion causes nothing but trouble. God has nothing to do with religion.
I also gave up religion when I was 12 and realised how misogynist it is. That's what happens with men interpret things (Gloria Steinem wrote a great essay called IF Men Could Menstruate, showing how menstruation would become a mainstream, valorized part of life, as opposed to the secret feminine hygiene shame it is). There are many female-identified dieties and belief systems. What about those as a source of God?
Finally and I hate to play the mummy card, but just grow another person inside your own body after a good shag. That's a bloody miracle. That's all the evidence you'll ever need.
Jo
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
PMC- Nice one about Noah. what the hell were kangaroos and koala's doing loitering about in ancient Israel huh? Not only that, but polar bears????? About the bible quotes, yeah just when I think nothing in the Bible can shock me any more I read things like "sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die". Yeah, I'm just lining up to worship you Oh Lord, thanks but no thanks.
Hi Joanne- thanks for the compliment. But I was pretty careful in my article to use only quotes which come directly from the Bible and Koran. I could have been even more damning had I chosen to provide quotes from such luminous religious figures such as Martin Luther and St Augustine but I refrained as I did only want to discuss God as he has apparently chosen to reveal himself in the Bible and Koran. Basically, the God I am discussing is the God of Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed.
Also, when I say "miracle", i don't just mean something good that has happened such as, like Kleo offered, a bird eating out of one's hand, or in your case, giving birth. I mean bona-fide-no-other-explanatio n-but-divine-interference-mir acles.
Like living in the belly of a whale. Turning into a pillar of salt. A angel commanding an illiterate man to read. A virgin giving birth to the son of God. How typical-even God refused to do it with with a non-virgin. At least we know where some men get their attitudes from.
Whilst giving birth might seem miraculous, it is not in the true sense of the word, a "miracle".
Comment by KylieW
Celebrity Obsession
A well thought-out and articulated post. Very nicely done!
Comment by Joanne Fedler
Secret Writers Business
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I don't think growing another human life, soul and all (btw, do you believe in the notion of the human soul?) is 'something good.' It's bigger than that, c'mon.I know, I had nothing to do with making my babies - I wouldn't know where to start (ok, I mean, I knew where to start, but then something else took over). Who did? I'd love to take credit for it, but I was just a vessel, really.
Also, I do believe bona fide miracles happen every day. I read a lot of Caroline Myss (have you read her? Anatomy of the Spirit, Entering the Castle, Invisible Acts of Power) in which she talks about healing, and the miracles that have happened there. Are you saying that if something miraculous only happens to one person, that is not enough 'proof?' I think those are the real miracles.
I am really fascinated in this discussion, because I am writing a book about just this dilemma. I am legally trained, so like you, I WANT PROOF. I have come to think that faith is the antithesis of rationality. I believe we are part rational, part-magical beings (or spiritual), and that hard facts and sustaining a belief in something without proof is the test of our humanity. I think perhaps I have been asking the wrong questions for most of my life. The only question I ask now, is 'with death a certainty, how shall I choose to live?' I guess believing in God (hate the terminology, because it is more accurate to say that I believe we are all spiritually connected to one another) is a choice I have made, because the alternative makes no sense to me.
In any event, science is catching up with spirituality as more and more evidence is emerging about how prayer, faith, generosity, forgiveness all create PHYSICAL healing in the body - they have a causal impact at a physical level. So when there is enough proof, will you change your mind?
Jo
Comment by Anne Tootill
The Female View
Funny Stuff
Hi Ruby, I thought your post was very clever, you put a very good case (are you a lawyer?) But I think that many people find immense comfort in their religion whether it be Christian, Muslum, Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, whatever and I was wondering how they were feeling reading it.
For me, if having a deep faith makes you a happier and better person - go for it. When I think of organisations like World Vision and all the other religious do-gooders in the world, I take heart and I believe the world is a better place because of them.
Comment by Lola Tahlulah
Lola Tahlulah
No offense meant, just an observation. I find that faith and religion is such a personal topic that it is rather circular to try to rationalize it one way or the other.
Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
hahaha Anna, no I am not a lawyer, just an ex-Muslim turned ex-Christian with a lot of baggage. I'm glad that some people find comfort in their faith, but for that does not make up for the suffering that "god" has inflicted on the human race for the last few thousand years. The World Vision and Salvation Army are great, but it is people who are doing these good deeds, not God.
Hi Lola, " a deeper reason?' Like what exactly?
These are just my own observations and opinions Lola, but you are not the first to balk at the thought of applying rationality and reason to the topic of God and religion. Martin Luther once said "reason is the enemy of religion".
Yes, it is isn't it?
Comment by Anne Tootill
The Female View
Funny Stuff
I got to thinking about the 10 commandments and how they relate to today's world and I think they are still a pretty good guide for living.
If my kids grow up honouring me and my hubby, don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't tell lies and don't long for things they don't have, I reckon I'll be a pretty happy woman.
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Comment by RubySoho
Thought Zone
Joanne- i really don't see how a co-relation between positive thinking, generosity and prayer is proof of the existence of God???
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Garrett's Absolution
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