RubySoho
Winston
Top Ten Reasons I Don’t Believe In God.
May 5th 2008 11:40
10. MIRACLES
The Bible is full of them. So is the Koran. Moses parting the Red Sea, Lazarus coming back from the dead, Jesus walking on water, Jonah surviving a stint in the belly of a whale, Lot’s wife turning ]into a pillar of salt, illiterate Mohammed suddenly being able to read. It seems like those ancient desert folk could barely breathe without tripping over a miracle. Where are our miracles? Why has God gotten so shy all of a sudden? Now that his three “great” monotheistic religions have permeated into every corner of the globe, now that the human race has made a right mess of everything, now that we need him more than ever, why has he gotten the worst case of stage fright ever known to man?
Come on God, just one. Just one miracle is all I ask. It doesn’t have to be a big one like getting pregnant despite the fact I haven’t had sex since Kevin Rudd won the election, but an teency, weency, little one would do. Like not getting fat even though I’ve eaten white bread every day for two weeks. By the way, I am typing this with my right hand only as I fondle my own newly arrived love handles with my left.
9. OVERWHELMING LACK OF EVIDENCE.
Jews believe the Old Testament is the word of God because the OT says it is the word of God.
Christians weren’t happy with the OT on its own so they added the New Testament and believe that is the final word of God because the NT says it is the final word of God.
Mohammed was rather pissed off that Arabs were left out of the equation so he came up with the Koran and Muslims believe that is the final, final word of God because the Koran says it is the final, final word of God.
But you know, if we could find just a tiny shred, a scrap, a wee little crumb of evidence anywhere that any of the events in those books happened the way they say it happened, they will have me. I will be sold. I will believe.
Anyone? Anywhere? Anything?
8. REASON FORCES ME NOT TO.
Sorry Winston, but I did tell I was going to steal that line one day didn’t I? For Winston’s excellent post on atheism click on this Really Long Link
How can I, an adult, educated and, I would like to believe, reasonably intelligent woman believe that a perfect deity created me from the rib of another human being? For no reason other than he felt like it? How am I to believe that this happened only a few thousand years ago? And that I, as a woman am still paying the price for the sins of another woman that was supposedly committed all those years ago?
And how am I to believe that this deity is watching me. Everyday. Every little thing I do. Watching, keeping track so that one day He may judge me and cast me into the eternal pit of hell and damnation for committing the very sins which he created me to commit.
I can’t. And that’s all there is to it. I just can’t. Because it makes absolutely no sense at all. It requires more than faith or suspension of disbelief- it requires self-delusion.
7. HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF
How can Mary be “ever-virgin” when the Bible says Jesus had four brothers as well as an undisclosed amount of sisters (Matthew 13:55-57)?
If Jesus was so loving and forgiving then why did he rudely tell a Caananite woman who pleaded with him for an exorcism that he would not waste his time helping a non-Jew (Matthew 15 21-28)?
Is he a “God of peace” (Romans 15:33) or a “God of war” (Exodus 15:3)?
Is Joseph the son of Jacob (Matthew 1:16) or the son of Heli (Luke 3:23)?
Is God “good to all: his tender mercies are over all his works. (Psalms 145:1) or does He “dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them”. (Jer 13:14)?
Is Jesus the equal of God as in “I and my Father are one (John 10:30) or does Jesus “go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I”. (John 14:28).
Yes, there are many, many more, but quite frankly I don’t think I have the time and patience to list them nor, I suspect, do you to read them.
6. CAIN AND ABEL
The Bible and Koran both say that all humankind is directly delineated from Adam and Eve. Upon being booted out of Eden, Eve bore many children, her two eldest being Cain and Abel. According to these books, after killing his brother Abel in a fit of jealous rage, Cain wandered into the wilderness and magically found himself a wife. But where did she come from? She is not one of Adam and Eve’s children. SO WHERE DID SHE COME FROM?
This is not a trivial point ladies and gentlemen. If Cain’s wife was not the offspring of Adam and Eve, then it means that not all humans are descendents of Adam and Eve which means the whole concept of the Garden of Eden, the fall from grace, the inheritance of original sin is a total crock. The idea that the human race are all natural born sinners, the notion that all our suffering is born out of the fact that Adam and Eve betrayed God is complete and utter rubbish. IT NEVER HAPPENED.
5. BERTRAND RUSSELL’S CELESTIAL TEAPOT AND THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER
Theists often seem to be of the opinion that they hold some sort of trump card when they gloat, “Well you can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, so nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah”. Whilst my first reaction to this infantile argument is an overwhelming desire to punch them in their smug little mouths, I do try to retain some sort of decorum and tell them, “Well we can’t really prove that anything doesn’t exist can we?”
One of my favourite atheists, the British philosopher Bertrand Russell. came up with the Teapot Hypothesis, which like the God Hypothesis, cannot actually be disproved:
“If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time”.
In the same vein, The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a present day deity first brought to our attention by American student Bobby Henderson in 2005. Bobby was alarmed that the Kansas School Board was considering approving the teaching Intelligent Design alongside evolution and wrote them an open letter requesting the teaching of Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, as it was the basis of his own belief system. Bobby concludes:
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence”
The Kansas School Board nixed the teaching of Intelligent Design. Thank the FSM’s noodly appendage for Bobby Henderson everybody!
For a good read on The Flying Spaghetti Monster visit Morgan Bell’s blog via this Really Long Link
4. SMARTER PEOPLE THAN I
Here is a selection of quotes regarding God and religion from some of the most brilliant minds that ever were:
Albert Einstein: “I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it”.
“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve”
Thomas Jefferson: “The Bible is not my book. Nor Christianity my religion”.
Bertrand Russell: “I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its Churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world”.
“So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence”.
Frederich Nietzsche: “Is man one of God's blunders? Or is God one of man's blunders?”
“I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.”
‘
Pierre Simon LaPlace: I have no need of that hypothesis”.
Seneca the Younger: “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful”.
Marie Curie: “Pierre belonged to no religion and I did not practice any”.
3. THE ENCYCLPAEDIA BRITANNICA
When I was growing up we, like every self-respecting wog family in the country, had the full 28 volume set of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. Plus the atlas and two(!) volume dictionary. It was proudly displayed in the living room wall unit, much to my mother’s consternation, as it meant she had to relegate her collection of non-stick, Margaret Fulton-approved, Bessemer pots and pans to the much smaller and decidedly less impressive cabinet in the un-renovated kitchen.
I grew up in a fairly religious Muslim family. My father tried to instil in us a good knowledge not only of Islam but also Christianity and Judaism (ah those intolerant Muslims huh?). One way in which he chose to do this was to gather the family around the telly every year when Cecile B DeMille’s The Ten Commandments would be polluting, I mean gracing, the airwaves. Growing up, I accepted the story as fact. But that was before the Encyclopaedia Britannica entered our lives. After watching the movie one particular year, I decided to see what it had to say on the matter of the parting of the Red Sea.
Well, according to this tome, Moses did not lead the Israelites to safety by parting the Red Sea, but by ushering them through the much more hospitable marshes known as The Sea of Reeds. Of course, this conflicts with the Biblical and Koranic versions. I read both, many times. I scratched my head. I lay awake in bed at night. I thought. I pondered. I wondered.
At the end of the day, I just decided that The Encyclopaedia made more sense.
I was 12 years old.
2. DARWIN’S THEORY OF EVOLUTION BY NATURAL SELECTION
Now I’m not going to bore you all with any kind of analysis of one of the most enlightening essays and theories in the history of mankind. I’m pretty sure most of you, and hope that all of you, are familiar with Darwin’s amazing discovery. Suffice it say, it is not “just a theory”, it has been observed and no more thorough explanation for the origin of the human race has ever, ever, EVER been out forward. Now, it may well be that Darwin and pretty much every scientist worth their salt since, was wrong about evolution. But until someone comes up with a more reasonable, logical and observable explanation, I’m holding onto this one thanks.
1. HE HATES WOMEN
But don’t take my word for it. Let the man, sorry ‘God’, speak for himself:
From the Bible:
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner"
(I Timothy 2:11-14).
"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).
"Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23).
"If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her saying, 'I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' …and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
"A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away" (Ecclesiasticus 25:25).
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God…A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).
From the Koran:
4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females,
4:15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands.
2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.
Ruby
p.s Did anyone else notice that the Bible is actually way more misogynistic than the Koran?
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Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
In all fairness to theists, frequently the ultimate justification for their belief comes down to personal revelation. They've had some type of feeling or experience that convinces them that God exists, and they go from there. That is a perfectly fine reason for an individual to believe, but it is a very poor reason for anyone else to believe. More than any of the other reasons out there, I think this is the biggest sticking point between theists and atheists. Atheists have either not had any type of experience like that, or they have had them but attribute it to some natural cause rather than god (I'd put myself in the second category).
This is what makes it so hard to debate this issue. You throw out a bunch of good info (as you've done here) and say, "OK, here are some valid reasons why religion doesn't make sense" and what you get back is often "you just don't get it" or "you just have to have faith" or some other type of special pleading. It is too often an exercise in frustration. Ideally, we could all just agree to disagree and move on, but that doesn't seem to be the case either.....
Very good article with very good points!
(ps. the link you provided is broken......)
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
And yes, these are just some of the reasons I personally don't believe. Other people can believe what they like, but next time a female Jehovah's Witness comes to my door I'm going to rattle off about how much God hates her and see how she can possible defend him. Should be fun.
Link above is fixed.
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
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What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
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They're both pretty misogynistic. The Koran said that "..perfidy lurks within ( women's) clothing.." along with a lot of other stuff like that.
I guess it's kind of a backward compliment. Women, along with snakes, sharks, and other beautiful but dangerous-when-messed-with creatures, have long been the victims of myth and misunderstanding.
Me, I've always gotten along fine with snakes and sharks..but then again, I respect their space.
As for debating the existence of an anthropomorphic deity, I don't go there anymore. If I want that kind of entertainment, I can always holler down a toilet.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I love how men will always insist on blaming women for the fact they find us attractive and want to fuck us.
Not intending on debating God's existence either...just preaching to the converted probably...or maybe giving the fence sitters something to think about.
Thanks for swinging by.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
The book is fictional (about Arthur) but Marion was a historian - her book the 'Firebrand' about Troy is full of historical accuracy. 'Mists of Avalon' deals with how cristianity rose, and had to cut off the head of the religion before it. The only way to gain power was to use the fire and brimstone - if you celebrate life and screw each other with abandon(which was very effective at widening the gene pool) you will go to this horrible hell place. Listen to us instead - we know the way.
And so begins the path....
Comment by samaritan
Fringe Faith
Samaritan's Stories
Just a couple of points I want to comment on. Firstly miracles. I believe that miracles do still happen. Sure, they may not be things that we can find no natural explanation for. But then that might be true of the miracles in the bible also. It's just that the people writing the bible didn't have that explanation available to them. I do think that God does intervene in our lives - but he rarely does so by breaking the laws of nature.
Like many things in the bible, the way that the people writing the bible saw events may not be an entirely accurate account of what really happened. There is evidence to show that there was a flood in the Middle East that could be the flood where Noah sailed his famous ark. It didn't cover the whole world. But if Noah was a real person, it would have seemed that way to him. He didn't have the knowledge to tell people that the flood only extended so far and so far. So he told of what he saw - it covered the whole earth - even if that's not literally what happened.
On the Virgin Mary. The idea of her as ever-virgin is not even biblical. It was dreamt up by some Catholic and then became standard Catholic doctrine. Most Protestants do not believe that Mary stayed a virgin. They believe instead that she was a virgin when she became pregnant, then went on to lose her virginity and have a family with Joseph. Making Joseph the only man to have ever had sex with a virgin mother. I can just imagine that conversation.
Mary: Joseph, will it hurt?
Joseph: Not anymore than giving birth did.
I think that many people refuse to believe in God because they think that, in order to do so, they have to leave their intelligence at the door of the church. But this is only true is we equate faith in God with a strict literalist interpretation of the bible. (And I'm talking only of the bible here because I haven't read the Koran. Keep meaning to, but haven't gotten around to it yet.) Many Christians would have us believe that that's the only way to believe God - and so they put people off believing in God altogether.
I don't believe in a literalist interpretation of the bible. For a start, the people writing the bible would not have thought of their stories in this way. Even Jesus used parables a lot. I see the bible as a people's account of their experience with God. That experience of God and the way they saw and wrote about him was seen through the lens of their culture and their time. It was influenced by their culture, their misconceptions, their lack of understanding and their prejudices.
This is not to say that that experience wasn't real. I believe it was. And I believe that the bible has a lot to teach us about God. But it's going to have inaccuracies, errors and things that we just can't tolerate now. It was written by a different culture to us. That doesn't make God any less real.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
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In Islam Eve bore four children who were on opposite ends of the genetic spectrum, two sets of male/female twins. The older set was seen were prettier and more intelligent than the younger brother and sister. The older brother married the younger city and the younger brother married the older sister.
So it goes.
Aaaalssoooooo, Einstein wasn't an atheist, he did believe in god.
Comment by Brenton
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Causative?
Comment by oz4travel@hotmail.com
I wish I could be a fly on the wall when our chiildren's children's children say, "Can you beleive that our forefathers believed in religion, go and all that bullshit".
When people ask me what religion I am, I say "Ombi religion". All other religions force one into a box, a tiny one like a match box actually!
OmbiYour text goes hereYour text goes here
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
in a word- yes.
Ahmed- I included the story of Cain and Abel as I've actually discussed this with a Muslim who knows more about the Koran than I do. And quite frankly he was stumped- couldn't work out who this woman was that Cain was said to have married. Does the Koran specify it was his sister?
But then, this discussion was with an Alawite Muslim and I know other Muslims don't consider them to be Muslim at all. Perhaps I should have made that distinction.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I can't accept a god who thinks having a girl is a loss, that women are the source of wickedness, that girls who have sex ought to be stoned. So you see, even if he did exist, i would still have to reject him. Not to demean your own faith, as I have already told you, I enjoy reading your thoughts and comments on your approach to the subject.
But your comments here
are problematic because even if Noah did not know- God did! Why didn't God impart such knowledge onto humans sooner? to me that is just further proof that the Bible was just written by men who were tying to make sense of the world around them. yes, there may be a semblance of truth in there, but it has been hugely distorted.
Kleo- I will endeavour to source that book, thanks for the recommendation.
Ombi- Ombi religion? Tell me more...
Comment by oz4travel@hotmail.com
This is what my friend Harry wrote to me just a moment ago:
"Ombi, I have a meeting at 4.30 across the way and now He decides to open up the Heavens!!??
Or maybe it was just the coincidental timing of a moist low presure system. I just don't know."
Ombi religion....aaah, that is profound! It's the beleif in myself, and it's also an attempt to not have my big self shoved in little boxes. Don't like labels, and don't like boxes.
For lovers of social justice, check out our blog:
www.veryitchyfeet.blogspot.com
The blogs on Cuba, Cambodia, El SAlvador and Nicaragua are particularly good. Just came bacj from a trip and my writing has a social edge....well more of a backdrop than edge.
Comment by samaritan
Fringe Faith
Samaritan's Stories
Fair enough. A lot of people take that approach - Christians and atheists. Fundamentalist Christians choose to accept everything, rather than rejecting God. You choose to reject God, rather than accept everything. It's not my approach to the bible, but I can understand why you think that way.
I don't know. I don't know why God does things. But maybe it's just because we need to learn things ourselves rather than having that knowledge imparted from on high.
I have two kids. I didn't take them aside on the first day they were born and tell them everything I know about life. Even if I did, they wouldn't have been able to understand it. Speaking of my kids, they often write things about me at school. Sometimes they get the information wrong. It doesn't mean that they don't have a relationship with me. It just means they have limited understanding and - as humans - they make errors.
So should God have ensured that everything written in the bible was completely accurate? I really don't know how he could have done that without turning the people who wrote the bible into robots. Kind of like programming a computer. I don't think God would have wanted to do that.
Samaritan
Comment by oz4travel@hotmail.com
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Well thought out, well researched and well presented.
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Very thoughtful post. and I agree with the well researched comments.
Comment by AmyHuang
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Although I also have a theory of my own. As part of my high school religion project (nerdy, I know) I did a research on world religions. I researched into old stories of Christianity (the bible), Islam (the Koran), Taoism and Buddhism. All their 'beginnings' sound incredibly similar, all their 'gods/buddhas/the higher being' begin with a man with a beard wearing a robe holding a staff/bamboo/walking stick.
Could it be? That they are all the same PERSON? And perhaps this person is not really a divine being either, it was just someone nice that performed some good deeds wherever he/she went, and as different cultures pass down different stories about this person, they get exaggerated, mis-informed and often, as cultures go, interpreted differently simply because each culture sees things differently. (For example, white signifies 'Pure' in the western cultures but means death in some Asian cultures - such differences can create very different stories!)
So really, we are all fighting for something that doesn't exist? I don't want to put a finger on it yet, but it's highly possible.
Comment by Cheryl J
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Anyway, after some consideration my curious little mind got to wondering about your point number 6, so I asked the local priest the question, "If Adam and Eve were the first and only people and Cain and Abel were their sons, who did they marry if Eve was the only woman? Well he couldn't answer so told me I was an evil little girl for saying such things. So here I was eleven, grieving for my dead father and feeling lost and a priest tells me I'm evil because he was too stupid to formulate a good response. I stopped going to church and now only go if someone is getting married, christened or buried.
I think all of your points are valid. I have vacillated back and forth from belief to non-belief over the years but now I think I would class myself more as agnostic than athiest. I have a strong aversion to religion itself.
Comment by lachlan
MYSTRO MUSIC
As I started to read all the quotes from the bible about women my skin started to crawl. For me I don't know how people can feel comfortable with believing what the bible, Koran or any other religious text says. I also don't get why people think we should believe something that was written thousands of years ago, why not someone write something now that talks about life today and why don't other people believe that. Fantastic post Thanks for your words.
Lachlan
Comment by Nomad
Awesome Food
I have a few theories for jesus-
Water into wine-
Jesus was the only one at the party that wasn't blind drunk and everyone was like 'man we're all out of wine there's only water left', then jesus was like 'dude, this one has wine in it'... and then they were like 'man did you see that? jesus friggin turned that water into wine'
then everyone started chanting 'JESUS, JESUS JESUS' and he just went along with it, cos no one likes to argue with drunk guys.
Walking on water-
everyone was drunk again and forgot it was low tide and jesus went for a splish splash in the water and everyone was like 'dude, jesus is friggin walkin on water...
feeding the 2000 4000 whatever i cant remember how many-
there were say ten people there and jesus just made sure everyone got a bite and then someone tells another guy the jesus feed like fifteen people and then that guy embellishes the story some more and says it was like fifty and so on until two towns over they think jesus is running some kind of kick arse restaurant...
and they were drunk too.
nomad
Comment by Nomad
Awesome Food
virgin mary-
mary got drunk one night and got knocked up by some random guy...
Comment by Cheryl J
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Comment by Joseph R. Terrazzino
Very nicely thought out. The Seneca quote is excellent. Yeah, I often wonder what the real God thinks of the god man has painted him out to be.
God hates gays, women, non-Christians, and rebellious children. But remember . . . He loves you.
Unless you cross Him. Then your blood shall run in rivers and stain his teeth and . . . well, anyway. We're all his little children.
Long live Dexter!
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
10. MIRACLES: The bible is a transliterated series of books, but not all of the books; if you’ve never seen an airplane, a submarine or ship and one appeared, seemingly from out of nowhere that would seem like a miracle. Much of what is going on in the word would appear miraculous to our great grandfathers. So, unless you were there, as a witness at the event, how can you be so arrogant to say that, naw, it didn’t happen. Language is a piss poor tool for communicating abstract concepts, but it’s the best we've got, for now. So, this is very weak, you’ve done more than take a little literary license in interpreting what you’ve read with prejudicial eyes.
9. OVERWHELMING LACK OF EVIDENCE: Even in chaos there is order; there is a mind numbing amount of universes in space, dimensions, parallel and adjunct, most still resonating at the sub atomic level with the sentient wave energy of creation, we don’t know yet, the extent to which life exists elsewhere-so lets not climb out of our primordial swamp and declare ourselves the only intelligent life in existence until all of the data is in. This is a sad and ego driven argument.
8. REASON FORCES ME NOT TO: Perhaps the first humans were genetically engineered, that isn’t beyond the scope of possibilities and what do you do with that information then? You’re reasoning is poisoned with personal vendetta. You’re pissed at god for what is for us an obscured reason, and are trying to set up a paradox, if you exist, build a mountain you can’t tear down. Doesn’t wash.
7. HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF: Most philosophical arguments do seem contradictory if not taken entirely in the context and frame work within which they were presented. If you don’t accept or believe these words as strongly as you suggest, don’t use them to support your argument. If I were to review a collection of your comments, and blogs, and then selectively use fragments of them out of context, I can prove you to be a maniacal witch-which I know that you aren’t. So, eh, no good.
6. CAIN AND ABEL: How can you not believe in god or his transliterated words and then use them to defend your argument,. That isn’t rational, either you believe or you don’t. This contradiction doesn’t work.
5. BERTRAND RUSSELL’S CELESTIAL TEAPOT AND THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER: Conversely, you can’t prove the validity of his argument either, properly massaged his spaghetti powered teapot will crap out Munsters. Circular argument that goes nowhere.
4. SMARTER PEOPLE THAN I: For crying out loud, are you kidding me, being smarter doesn’t make anyone an assumed expert on any topic unless you choose to surrender your ability to consider that topic on your own; we all make mistakes. This list is meaningless and selective.
3. THE ENCYCLPAEDIA BRITANNICA: A collection of studies that aren’t always accurate and whose relevance is subjective to your argument only by sheer weight of verbiage and selective use.
2. DARWIN’S THEORY OF EVOLUTION BY NATURAL SELECTION: Darwin’s theory is just that, an unsubstantiated theory; it only works after creation has been called in to play. Forget using Darwin, it has only limited application and you’re stretching the boundaries.
1. HE HATES WOMEN: The bible as a transliterated book, can be read in such a manner as to prove any argument; but then so can the Jewish Talmud, and Tanakh, the Islamic Koran, the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta, the Hindu Vedanta ~ Bhagvad Gita, the Mein Kampf of Nazi Germany or even Tolstoy’s War and Peace can all be massaged enough that even though it is a cow, it’ll quack like a duck. So, nope this doesn’t wash.
Ruby, although your arguments might overwhelm others, much of it is the usual stuff. Is your real bitch with god or is it with religion? I recognize the burning anger, but you may be asking the wrong questions in your search for a right answer. It's a thought. No need to replay to this, I don't really care about being right or wrong on the subject; I am content with my level of ignorance. But, if you'd like to seriously learn more about this topic, I would too.
So, redefine you contentions and lets have at them.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
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Johnny and Lachlan- kind words much appreciated. Thanks for reading my own humble opinion.
Louie- Thanks also. In the matter of God v religion, the god I am addressing is the one described in the Bible and Koran. I know many people have an entirely different concept of God.
Nomad- yeah, I am thinking that those ancient folk were probably just a bunch of drunkards and stoners. Probably none bigger than Jesus himself.
Joseph- Your comments bring up one of the biggest problems I have with God- ie he loves us but is quite content to put us through the most agonising pain that will last for all eternity if we don't worship him precisely as he wishes to be worshipped.
hmmm. No thanks. As Billy Joel sang " I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints"...
Comment by RubySoho
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I like how you can pinpoint an exact moment when it no longer made sense to you. Many other people also have a defining moment such as yours. My own was the Britannica incident at my point three. That kind of killed my faith...although i somehow became involved with the Witnesses a few years later, don't ask me how...oh well, like you said, back and forth, back and forth. But no going back now, not a chance.
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That's one helluva election result!
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Raven, this comments section is cluttered enough already. I will blog my response to you shortly. Thanks for swinging by.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Samaritan, I like how you think mate.
Go Louie!
Amy, Ive been saying that for years! The similarities are right there.
Cheryl
Nomad Kick arse! Thats the kind of attitude needed when reading the Bible! I did a post down that line!
Just wanted to say, I love discussion!
Comment by postmoderncritic
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Lol, we still have the Encyclopaedia Britannica lining the shelves of our living room library (though I don't like the word 'wog', mainly because of its sound)! I've had similarly meaningful experiences with it, only in my case it was looking up 'homosexuality', to find a nice, calming torrent of information which was a relief after the nasty attitudes of my parents whenever the issue came up.
If it helps, I haven't had sex since mid-2006... I've been more than usually picky!
My parents are both atheists and raised me to be one too, and I have never felt the need to create vast resources of guilt or find ways my behaviour could be interpreted as 'sinful'. Hey, at least my parents got one thing right, lol!
Thanks for the Bible and Koran quotes, that was deeply disturbing, but informative!
Comment by Joanne Fedler
Great to read something from an intelligent woman, even though I disagree with you about God.
Just to keep it short:
Religion is not God. Don't confuse them. Religion causes nothing but trouble. God has nothing to do with religion.
I also gave up religion when I was 12 and realised how misogynist it is. That's what happens with men interpret things (Gloria Steinem wrote a great essay called IF Men Could Menstruate, showing how menstruation would become a mainstream, valorized part of life, as opposed to the secret feminine hygiene shame it is). There are many female-identified dieties and belief systems. What about those as a source of God?
Finally and I hate to play the mummy card, but just grow another person inside your own body after a good shag. That's a bloody miracle. That's all the evidence you'll ever need.
Jo
Comment by RubySoho
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PMC- Nice one about Noah. what the hell were kangaroos and koala's doing loitering about in ancient Israel huh? Not only that, but polar bears????? About the bible quotes, yeah just when I think nothing in the Bible can shock me any more I read things like "sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die". Yeah, I'm just lining up to worship you Oh Lord, thanks but no thanks.
Hi Joanne- thanks for the compliment. But I was pretty careful in my article to use only quotes which come directly from the Bible and Koran. I could have been even more damning had I chosen to provide quotes from such luminous religious figures such as Martin Luther and St Augustine but I refrained as I did only want to discuss God as he has apparently chosen to reveal himself in the Bible and Koran. Basically, the God I am discussing is the God of Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed.
Also, when I say "miracle", i don't just mean something good that has happened such as, like Kleo offered, a bird eating out of one's hand, or in your case, giving birth. I mean bona-fide-no-other-explanatio n-but-divine-interference-mir acles.
Like living in the belly of a whale. Turning into a pillar of salt. A angel commanding an illiterate man to read. A virgin giving birth to the son of God. How typical-even God refused to do it with with a non-virgin. At least we know where some men get their attitudes from.
Whilst giving birth might seem miraculous, it is not in the true sense of the word, a "miracle".
Comment by KylieW
Celebrity Obsession
A well thought-out and articulated post. Very nicely done!
Comment by Joanne Fedler
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I don't think growing another human life, soul and all (btw, do you believe in the notion of the human soul?) is 'something good.' It's bigger than that, c'mon.I know, I had nothing to do with making my babies - I wouldn't know where to start (ok, I mean, I knew where to start, but then something else took over). Who did? I'd love to take credit for it, but I was just a vessel, really.
Also, I do believe bona fide miracles happen every day. I read a lot of Caroline Myss (have you read her? Anatomy of the Spirit, Entering the Castle, Invisible Acts of Power) in which she talks about healing, and the miracles that have happened there. Are you saying that if something miraculous only happens to one person, that is not enough 'proof?' I think those are the real miracles.
I am really fascinated in this discussion, because I am writing a book about just this dilemma. I am legally trained, so like you, I WANT PROOF. I have come to think that faith is the antithesis of rationality. I believe we are part rational, part-magical beings (or spiritual), and that hard facts and sustaining a belief in something without proof is the test of our humanity. I think perhaps I have been asking the wrong questions for most of my life. The only question I ask now, is 'with death a certainty, how shall I choose to live?' I guess believing in God (hate the terminology, because it is more accurate to say that I believe we are all spiritually connected to one another) is a choice I have made, because the alternative makes no sense to me.
In any event, science is catching up with spirituality as more and more evidence is emerging about how prayer, faith, generosity, forgiveness all create PHYSICAL healing in the body - they have a causal impact at a physical level. So when there is enough proof, will you change your mind?
Jo
Comment by Anne Tootill
Hi Ruby, I thought your post was very clever, you put a very good case (are you a lawyer?) But I think that many people find immense comfort in their religion whether it be Christian, Muslum, Jewish, Jehovah's Witness, whatever and I was wondering how they were feeling reading it.
For me, if having a deep faith makes you a happier and better person - go for it. When I think of organisations like World Vision and all the other religious do-gooders in the world, I take heart and I believe the world is a better place because of them.
Comment by Lola Tahlulah
Lola Tahlulah
No offense meant, just an observation. I find that faith and religion is such a personal topic that it is rather circular to try to rationalize it one way or the other.
Comment by RubySoho
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hahaha Anna, no I am not a lawyer, just an ex-Muslim turned ex-Christian with a lot of baggage. I'm glad that some people find comfort in their faith, but for that does not make up for the suffering that "god" has inflicted on the human race for the last few thousand years. The World Vision and Salvation Army are great, but it is people who are doing these good deeds, not God.
Hi Lola, " a deeper reason?' Like what exactly?
These are just my own observations and opinions Lola, but you are not the first to balk at the thought of applying rationality and reason to the topic of God and religion. Martin Luther once said "reason is the enemy of religion".
Yes, it is isn't it?
Comment by Anne Tootill
I got to thinking about the 10 commandments and how they relate to today's world and I think they are still a pretty good guide for living.
If my kids grow up honouring me and my hubby, don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't tell lies and don't long for things they don't have, I reckon I'll be a pretty happy woman.
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Comment by RubySoho
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Joanne- i really don't see how a co-relation between positive thinking, generosity and prayer is proof of the existence of God???
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Comment by His Child
Lord, please look upon these who do not believe in You. Work in their lives as You have in mine. Find a way that only You can manage to fill the void in their lives that leads them to deny You as God the Father. Help them to seek Your Son Jesus Christ as their Savior. I pray these and all other things in Christ Jesus' Holy Name. A-men
His Child
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
If you find fault with the way Ruby used her quotes, explain why! Don't leave cryptic remarks and prayers. That's a cop out. Offer evidence as to why you believe she is wrong. At worst you'll get a counter argument, and at best you may correct a misunderstanding put forth on this post. Your dodging of the issue helps nothing.
With that being said, your self-righteous posturing here is condescending and unwarranted. Educate yourself and check your arrogance at the door the next time you feel inclined to render a verdict on another person's quality of life. If you want to read about atheism from the perspective of an atheist, click this. If not, at least try to understand that not all viewpoints are like your own, and that even if your words are well-intentioned, they can still be cause for offense.
Best wishes
Comment by Morgan Bell
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why i dont think the bible should be taken literally: the people who wrote it didnt have an understanding of evolution (and like the analogy of samaritans kids) they cant really be trusted to filter divine messages down unbiased . . . the bible seems more like a historical law document
why i dont believe in god (any god or higher being): i simply honestly dont feel it, its like when you know you dont love someone anymore . . . sometimes i feel a sense of karma but generally i feel i am in charge of my own destiny
therefore i respect if people do feel it (god/spirituality)just as i would like to be respected for my absense of feelings
very interesting post!
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
You are suffering from the sin of pride, as your name tells us. You are also presenting yourself as Gods soldier, trying to convert us, and ignoring his directive to appreciate other points of view. I believe you judged us too, naughty naughty.
And that is not just a prayer - directed at us like that it becomes a spell, and I take offence to you trying to bend my will. Get thee back to church and from my eyes.
Comment by RubySoho
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Morgan, no problem, that was a good post. also, you will notice in the title i wrote top ten reasons don't believe in god.these are my reasons, subjective and subject to change. it wasn't meant to be definitive nor apply to everyone.
i was just putting it out there and the response has been overwhelming to say the least...why is it that the posts that you think no-one will read always turn out to be the most popular ones?
Comment by Anonymous
My wife is very religious for some reason and is upset that I am going to Hell. I just tell her if all dogs go to heaven it must reek like dogshit and I would rather be kicked in the balls by every person in the world on a rotating basis for all eternity than spend any more time with my loving family members all in one place.
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haha. trendsetter.
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Thanks for reading and commenting.
10. Miracles: Already covered by samaritan. But let me say this, would not living in the belly of a whale, being turned into a pillar of salt and giving birth to a baby qualify as a miracle, regardless of when these events occurred? To the best of my knowledge, even today, we would not be able to explain such events. In a way you have proven my point. The MEN who wrote the Bible had no explanation for the world around them, so they attributed everything to a higher power, even though the existence of a higher power is not necessary.
9. Overwhelming lack of evidence- hey I am the I first to say that there may well be other life out there, if life could arise on this planet, what is to stop it from doing so elsewhere? However, I am not going to go around preaching that alien life definitely exists until we get more indication that is does so. Likewise, I am not going to acknowledge the existence of a deity until we get more evidence. As Bertrand Russell replied when questioned about what he would say to God, should God actually exist and Russell meets his maker “ My Lord, you did not give me enough evidence”.
8. You’ve used a lot of big words here but have not actually said anything. Personal vendetta? I’m just saying that to my own reasonable, rational brain, the arguments for God’s existence do no not make sense. Why should I believe that the Bible is the word of god, for no reason other than because the Bible says it is the word of God? In the mid 90s. the British band Oasis were able to generate a lot of hype by telling everyone who would listen that they were the best band that ever lived and their album was the greatest ever made. Yes, a lot of people believed the, Now, we laugh at that little period on rock music history, don’t we?
7. Sorry, i wasn’t aware that God was merely a “philosophical argument.” I thought he was the indisputable creator of the universe. Philosophy can be contradictory because it is merely the questions that man throws out into the ether in an attempt to understand the self and the universe and makes some sense out of this senseless existence. One would think that a perfect God would not be privy to these constraints and contradictions. Of god is so bloody perfect I do wish he would start acting like it.
6. Come again? I think I have clearly made my point by saying I don’t believe in God BECAUSE I think his “transliterated words” are a load of hogwash? How else am I to give substance to my argument unless I quote his own words? What contradiction? Where?
5. You missed the point love. The point being that just because I cannot prove that God does not exist does not mean he does. I defy you prove to me that there are no fairies at the bottom of the garden, flying spaghetti monsters, or orbiting celestial teapots. What makes God any different to these?
4. This list is a list of people who have influenced me in one-way or the other. If you look at the title of my post it read, “Top ten reasons I don’t believe in God”. As in me, my top ten. No-eon else’s. Did I call it Top Ten reasons God definitely not exist? Top ten reasons no one should believe in God? No. It is my list. It is a list of reasons of why I Ruby, do not believe. And yes, my atheism is influenced by what some others have to say on the subject. I am merely giving readers a taste of what those people have written in the hope it may inspire some to do some further reading.
3. Once again, personal story. The incident I described here was the first time the seeds of doubt were planted in my mind. It was meant to be selective.
2. No it is not just a theory Raven, I suggest you read up on evolution a little more before you make such baseless statements.
1. By what stretch of the imagination can these quotes be taken to mean anything other than hatred toward women?
Either give me an explanation of give me a break.
If you are going to rebut my article, then rebut my actual arguments, don’t just tell me I am wrong and leave it at that. Doesn’t wash? No, what does not wash are women being led to believe that we are inferior to men because the Bible tells us we are.
The Bible hates women. It is clear as day. I will not accept this. Therefore I do no accept the Bible. You can if you wish. But I don’t.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
However, I know how easily any of us can be sucked in to these tail chasing never ending debates.
First, let me say this, I don't care to change your opinion, I can't change your history or your future, and I certainly don't mind agreeing to disagree on any topic yet still explore it, and gender influenced perspectives are real and therefore valid as are cultural differences.
So, with that in mind, I'll post my reply later.
Raven
Comment by Michael 2
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I have heard parents of retarded children that they see God in the face of a smiling idiot and I must admit that seems somewhat odd to me. I end up believing something other than the various orthodoxies because I agree that on some level they make no sense. My beliefs are based on something like this: God is what is best and brightest in us. This leads me to believe for
instance, that God would not make us as flawed beings and then spend eternity cursing our flaws.
It is said that a poor workman blames his tools. I do not serve a poor workman. I see God in nature, the sky, and the love a mother has for her child. My faith will not bear up under theological scrutiny for I do not seek consistency with dead men. In the end I guess I would say if being an atheist makes you happy more power to you. Good luck with your plans to take "In God We Trust" off the money. You'll need it.
Comment by Anonymous
We debate unsuccessfully on things like monkeys, evolution, dinosaurs, and where moral values come from. She insists it's God's will. I insist people are nice and even considerate toward one another in small groups and 1 on 1 settings but as a whole, people are assholes.
She also believes in ghosts. I insist all ghosts would only haunt locker rooms and strip clubs. But, she doesn't believe in aliens because they aren't in the bible.
My life is a sitcom.
Comment by Cheryl J
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I know I've already commented but I had to put in another 2 cents worth. Yes the world and the people in it are wonderful and perhaps miraculous but not in a biblical sense, in a scientific sense. I think many things I see are awe inspiring but they still don't give me a convincing argument on God.
Someone further up the page said the Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory. And I agree, there are gaps that have yet to be properly explained (and I do say a big fat YET). There is also The Big Bang Theory. But will someone explain to me why we can call both of those things theories when they have found mountains of evidence in favour of said theories because there are some gaps that haven't been fully discovered yet, but don't call creation 'The Theory of Creation' because to the best of my knowledge, THAT hasn't been proven either? So everyone should believe in whatever they choose but so far nobody has proven anything definitively yet.
In all honesty, I think belief in God is borne of fear. Fear of death and fear of the unknown. Humans cannot bear to think that this could be all there is, or that being 'good' will not bring you rewards. Well people, a life well lived should be its own reward. I am comfortable thinking this is all there is and when I die I will hopefully provide organs for those in need, have my brain studied for science (I'm a brain donor for an educational institution) and my body will become one with the earth and begin another cycle of life as nutrients for a plant or two.
Sorry this is so long but I had to point out the disparity between creation not being called a theory when it has not been proven either and how people throw up the word theory for any scientific explanations. People have faith in God, but they don't have proof. And I think faith is a wonderful thing for people who need it or have it. It has given people solace and joy. I just don't personally need it.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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biologists maintain that "evolution" is a fact and "natural selection" is a viable scientific theory to explain the mechanism of evolution . . . there are several theories of the "mechanism" of evolution and biologists readily admit they can not be certain about the exact mechanism
biological evolution (the fact) can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming
when scientists say "fact" they mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." (as opposed to "absolute certainty")
when scientists say "theory" they mean "a hypothetical structure of ideas that explains and interprets the facts" (as opposed to "random guess")
quotes from Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981 . . . the year i was born
Comment by RubySoho
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Thanks for the compliment on this post, I really never expected it to explode like this. I'm glad it's got people talking and thinking though.I think we are living at a time of major change in the way people approach faith and God, where finally those of us who don't believe are able to express our beliefs and opinions without fear of retribution.
Not so long ago we all would have been tried for heresy.
Comment by RubySoho
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Anon- I really don't know how you do it. I would go bonkers. But it looks like your sense of humour is pulling you through. Hope it all works out for you.
Michael 2- I don't live in America and therefore do not have to deal with money that has the word "god' on it, nor do I have a wish to get it removed. But I can understand why some Americans are objecting to it. I think they will be successful...eventually. Neitzsche was premature, God is not yet dead. But he is dying. Thank God...haha.
Comment by Anonymous
First of all don’t mind my English, which is not my language and I am not from this country. But still don’t much better then people around me and By help of Lord Almighty I am happy with my life.
I was searching for weekdays name for my daughter on google and saw this so called article or blog submitted by you few.
I thought not to read and leave it as is. Its useless talk. But then I read to see how you people feeling and suffering. Then I read it. If some one needs gaudiness he/she talk to the person with reason and knowledge. I mean KNOWLEDGE. NOT MASTER OR GRADUCATION OR PH. D. A person can have this college degree but still be stupid then you every saw. He don’t know the value and culture and truth about what around him. He/she is not chicken hide in room just keep typing. But can not set in few to talk.
I wish if you few were close to me and we have healthy and positive talk. Not just writing words.
I am positive that you people are alone. No family around. I mean you ware raised without mother or father in your life and the left over was with girl/boy friend in front of you which is so common in US. And your brother sister is not along with you. They also fly like are bird. You were dragging your self also with boy/grill friend system. No real happiness around you. No family and children and husband / wife. So you people start cursing God The Almighty. Which you found so easy escape from the truth. I even saw people who want to make them self busy with work / over time / drinking / computer. They don’t have other life then this.
You have all broken life and don’t know the real joy of this life. So you all want to be drunk and not have courage to deal with reality. Like those your scientist you name how many people know them. Only few like you who want to have no one around. Read there personal life they ware alone like you few.
My Lord guide you all and make you courage to seat with some one and have positive talk. Not just arguments. Which is always useless?
By you few saying “there is no God”. What will happen? You will get some kind of satisfaction. Fine but that can not change the reality. By setting in dark room and closing door and windows. Day can not go. Open your eyes, be strong and come to the light and find out where is the real light coming from
Comment by Anne Tootill
Just wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with AA and the 12 steps. I think they have a similar program for drug reahabilitation.
This is from their literature:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Newcomers are not asked to accept or follow these Twelve Steps in their entirety if they feel unwilling or unable to do so.
They will usually be asked to keep an open mind, to attend meetings at which recovered alcoholics describe their personal experiences in achieving sobriety, and to read A.A. literature describing and interpreting the A.A. program."
I believe this program changes lives and give the individual a spiritual awakening in many cases they never had before.
Alcohol is so firmly entrenched in our Australian culture it's easy to find yourself caught up in a bad habit with nowhere else to go.
I think the second step - "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" is very powerful and probably the hardest for many people accept.
We all have such big egos, I like the concept of a power greater than myself, it has a nice ring to it.
You are so interesting Ruby, cheers Anne
Comment by Ombi
Yeh, let's keep the blog going.....check this out..it's a "creationist museum":
Really Long Link
Enjoy
Ombi
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Ombi
Comment by OnlineWriter
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I highly recommend:
The God Who Wasn't There
and
Zeitgeist (just the first part, not the stuff later)
Unfortunately, trying to get a religious person to even watch 5 minutes of these films is harder than getting a church choir to sing Danzig songs.
Comment by RubySoho
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But having said that I have no direct experience of AA nor do I know anyone who has.
Hi Ombi, I think I know where that link is leading to. Ken Ham's creationist museum in Kentucky? I've heard about that. They claim dinosaurs and humans co-existed. I'm embarrassed to say that Ken Ham is an Australian
Comment by RubySoho
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The God Who Wasn't There? Don't know that one...
Comment by RubySoho
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They don't even realise they are satirising themselves.
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Comment by Ahmed
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I'm not arguing under which terms Einstein believed in god, I'm just saying Einstein did believe in god, he's made numerous comments about better understanding how god made everything and it would be easier to derive from that what he meant was not 'I don't believ ein a personal god that intervenes with human life' but 'I don't believe god is going to change anything, everything is set in stone as it is'.
Though i don't really care what he thought so meh, just saying, that was one major error, amongst others, you made.
Comment by RubySoho
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Einstein called Spinoza one of his greatest influences.
It really irks me when monotheists try to rewrite history by claiming Einstein for one of their own, when he clearly was not as he repeatedly stated. It is an absolute myth made even more annoying by repeated attempts to keep it alive. I was quite deliberate in including Einstein in my article for exactly this reason.
What other 'errors'?
Comment by Ahmed
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This fundamental flaw perfectly represents itself in the article and the subsequent comments it has gathered.
Comment by Brenton
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Why is there this assumption of Aetheists as an organised group.
Honestly the money thing meses with me. Cos like, nothing is more religious than money, right?
Comment by RubySoho
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Stop talking in circles please. This whole "atheists are fundamentals too" argument just does not wash. It is not up to us to prove that God does not exist. It is up to you to prove that he does.
Comment by OnlineWriter
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You can't blame them for being ignorant. If we all grew up being taught from an early age that dogcrap was a delicacy, we'd be a society of dogcrap eaters.
Same goes for religion. They have been taught their entire lives that something is real even though it's absurd. You can't change their opinion no matter what.
The only thing left is to treat them like children. "There there, yes I'm SURE you will go to a magical place when you die. You can ride unicorns and hang out with your loved ones forever!"; "Yes, I agree with you. Some invisible, all seeing dude farted the universe into existance just a few thousand years ago. Ok. Now drink your milk."
The trick is to get them to shut the hell up about it which can't be done easily.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
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If you did read what I wrote you would understand, though perhaps you didn't, the fact you didn't read my original comment in its entirity initself suggests you don't want to hear another opinion, however just let me restate my stance:
I'm not making any statement here to try and debate with you. Perhaps I should elaborate on just why that is. Your article was written with a pre-emptive and arrogant attitude, that you know what you're talking about and if anyone should disagree it would mean they are absoloutely wrong. You may try to say that is inaccurate however the way in which you presented your flawless points would betray any claim to 'open mindedness' you might make. Of course if you're going to debate with a closed mind then there's no point in debating at all. The simple truth is you cannot say you're open minded then go about and simplify the other sides complex beliefs and attempt to explain them in a few sentences. You are no different to 'them' when they simplify your arguments and you complain. This is particularly potent with the creationism vs. evolution debate where people who believe evolution is true get angry when creationists start simplifying scientific fact as a means to break them down and prove them wrong.
The method of argument in the entire article is not about stating a case and asking to either be challenged on or verified. It's about your own feelings of grandeur and how right you are and how wrong everyone who disagrees is. A proper, sufficient, article would go in depth not about how correct your point of view is but about the depth and complexities of religion and through that perhaps come toa conclusion for as to why you don't believe in god. Silly rhetoric, which is all I have seen thusfar, is ridiculous and counter productive. I don't dignify rhetoric much less do I dignify arrogance, two things I see a lot of in these 'debates' and the comments section here.
I'm not interested in proving god exists to you or to anyone, if you have had sufficient experience in reading about or partaking in such debates you would full well know where it would lead. I know right now you're feeling this enormouse desire to 'debate' with me. But really you don't want to debate, you dont even want to partake in a discussion, you've set your mind in stone. You might say you're open minded or open to discussion or a healthy debate but really you're just going to use that as a means to try and yell your way to becoming right, you're interested in a shouting match no less. Sure you might want to be right, but simplifying someones argument then proving it wrong does not make you right however it certainly does make you feel good as if you were right.
You are not prepared to maturely debate the matter because you are not ready to read someone elses opinion if there is a disagreement. Don't try to say otherwise, I've read every comment here yet mine has been there for so long and you didn't read it all up until now. Perhaps after you finally mustered up the courage to go through with it and read the last bunch of lines?
Any chance for debate or discussion is not possible, because you are not sufficiently mature or 'open minded' to partake in a serious talk. You are not comfortable enough in your beliefs to understand that such a debate, for it to be productive, would not be about discussing gods existence but discussing the opinions of different people as to gods existence. There is no point in trying to prove to people you are right in such a debate, I like to think that if I were to be debating anything about religion that there would be something besides empty self satisfaction gained from it. Unfortunately the way in which you have presented your points and the way in which you have prepared to argue them means if I were naive enough to try and have a deep and meaningful debate it would end up as nothing but a shouting match.
I'm sorry but I've been there, done that and I'm not in the mood to waste time on a meangingless exercise of frustration.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Close mind? Ha. My mind didn't open until I saw God and religion for what they are.
The greatest cause of misery, close-mindedness and absolute waste of time ever to afflict the human race.
I'm sorry that I missed the last line of your original comment, but I'm sick of people telling me that atheism is a fundamentalist belief. It is the opposite of fundamentalism. It is not a belief, it is the absence of belief.
And why should I respect something that has absolutely no respect for me?
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by RubySoho
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I don't want to get into a slinging match with you over this either.
Comment by OnlineWriter
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In this day and age it's hard to comprehend isn't it? It stops my brain from even working sometimes when I try to understand how they would engage in this behavior and do it willingly!
My best guess is that some people are just so miserable and unhappy with themselves that the only scapegoat is an imaginary person to blame their misfortune on.
Oddly, they love this same person that has caused them so much misery, unconditionally. That's what really bothers me. Most Christians especially have some hard luck story that ends with them finding Jesus and they are happy. That's nice I suppose.
Is it so hard to attribute your life to ....yourself? You made the choices to get where you are whether it's a trailer in the boonies or a beach house.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Nothing becomes something when you defend it as ferociously as you have.
I'm having difficulty with my hands, but I wanted to say hi.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Why do I debate the issue? Two main reasons, actually three:
1. Much of the ills of our society stem from religious traditions and attitudes. Particularly the status of women. Misogyny has its roots in the Bible. So does our less than enlightened attitude to sex, particularly women's sexuality. I don't enjoy seeing women relegated to second class citizens.
2. Religion continues to encroach on the lives of non-believers. Just take a look at the issues pages of the Presidential candidates, all of them seem to feel the need to affirm their religious beliefs and tell us where they stand on abortion, stem cell research and gay rights. Why? Because the Jesus freaks wouldn't vote for them if they didn't.
3. I think people who have accepted religious dogma from a young age should be encouraged to seek information other than that which they have been fed their whole lives. Let them make an informed decision about what they believe, rather than just blindly accept what they are taught.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Misogyny was well rooted before any religious tomes were written down; for the physically weaker woman, it was prudent to seek protection from enemies by aligning oneself with a stronger partner but that protection came with a price. And the original need no longer exists.
Laws encroach on the lives of non-abider's, should we abandon ourselves to anarchy? Religious codes of conduct, no matter how flawed, were the start of what is still evolving; the equality of justice.
I have always been a spiritualist, but studied most forms of protestant christianity, catholicism, messianic judaism, I practiced Islam and studied more eastern religions than most scholars; when it all boiled down to a single element, I realized that there is a god and we are one. It's more akin to the sentient energy that permeates everything at a subatomic level, there's no escaping it. It is neither good or evil, it is perpetually creating and recycling all that has been changed in the processes, without malice.
Everything beyond that, is at the not so tender mercy of our perceptions and prejudices.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
But I think you will find that the pagan religions had an altogether healthier attitude toward women.
No, I don't propose we descend into anarchy. But man made laws are (theoretically) designed to treat all people equally. Religious laws favour the religious in general and men in particular. If faith is a matter of personal choice as I am so often told (berated more like), then let's keep it personal shall we? Don't stand outside an abortion clinic and hurl abuse at every woman who goes inside and quit hollering and whining just because a same sex couple can get married in California. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Men are marrying each other. Good grief.
You practiced Islam? I find that intriguing. Good luck with your hand surgery.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Like you Ruby, my mind didnt open until I rejected my religion, but it opened in the sense that 'God' isnt what we want him to be, or what we imagine him to be.
Its like when people say 'Alien' now. We all think we know what 'Aliens' look like. But the definition of 'Alien' is beyond our imagining. Its something we cant conceive. Somehow it became little grey men. Or big half reptile mosters?
It is my belief that 'God' is the king of cell division and I will never stop believing that. It IS the universe, it IS everything, it IS concioussness, where we HAVE conciousness. We are NOTHING to 'God' we are the millions of grains of sand on the beach. We're not 'special' we are not 'created' to be his children. The cells divided, life resulted, and we are that life, moving to its own conclusion. 'God' is not responsable.
Why should we assume the universal parents are different to the earthly ones? Dont the earthly ones throw up their hands as the children take their own paths? Thats how it is.
Like the Ian Malcolm 'Chaos' theory, that everything works the same way but on different scales? Ive posted on this somewhere, actually.
But I love these debates. I always manage to piss off both sides.
Comment by OnlineWriter
Online Writing Jobs
Who knows lol.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
a crystal tripod that sucks iron out of rocks and roams some horrible landscape doing whatever.
i giggled out loud at that online writer. you need a shorter name love, i feel like a right twat calling you that everytime i post a comment to you.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Men and women have abused the religion and presumed to speak for god: for me that is an abomination - unless they've been commanded to speak, mouths should remain shut. Most prophets couldn't deliver a message and then shut up. They yielded to persistent pestering and clamorous voices to provide insights they didn't have and therein crept the incidious variances between gods words and his intentions.
No, Spinoza and I do not have that much in common, except to challenge the conventions of religion vs spiritualism.
I have a deep sense of appreciation for so-called pagan beliefs and attitudes, but see them as a limiting element as well.
Man modified the laws of god to suit his reasons, god isn't a petty as that. We limited ourselves and god when we define him/her.
Yup, I admire the discipline of Islam when practiced in faith driven desire to commune with god and not out of fear.
I am not sure whether or not surgery is required; thank you for your concern.
Raven
Comment by OnlineWriter
Online Writing Jobs
I just saw God in a bowl of cheerios. He wanted me to tell everyone to spread the good word! His exact words were:
"Thou shalt visit OnlineWriters blogs and click randomly on Google Ads. Or I shall smite you."
Hey, can't argue with that!
Just call me Rob. Maybe I'll figure it out lol.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I know what you mean about faith driven desire in Islam, my father was like that. His faith was very personal and quite intense. And private. He was also very political but put social justice issues ahead of 'moral' ones. I think that is the way Islam was intended, but as with everything, it was corrupted by the powers that be.
Yeah, I know that followers of religion would not be hearing this message, but to be honest, I'm more interested in reaching like minded people and encouraging them to voice their opinions as well. Religion has to be made accountable.
Rob, who am I to argue with a bowl of cheerios? I love it when people say things like "just call me Rob". Any name is as good as another.
Comment by Joel 2
To There And Back
Comment by OnlineWriter
Online Writing Jobs
I think the ecclesiasticus in my underwear is worn out. They keep giving me a wedgie.
I just forwarded that to this pastor guy I know. I've never seen it spelled that way but it will be from this day forward!
Best typo of all time!
Comment by Johnny Come Lately
Jack's Back
Comment by OnlineWriter
Online Writing Jobs
Would be a good name for a punk band.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I chose this version as it is used by more Christians than any other- and since Christianity as we know it today pretty much began and was formed by the Church, I figured it was the best to go by. Plus, it was the Church who decided which books were canonical and which were apocryphal.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Really Long Link
talk about sweeping statements!
Comment by RubySoho
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Morgan, I think my head is going to explode. That scientists post was one thing but this is altogether beyond belief.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i didnt realise all vile behaviour is excusable as long as you help the poor in third world countries during business hours
its so hard to pick an absolute favourite part with so many absolute statements flying around but i also quite enjoyed this one:
which apart from being a bit of a backpeddle on the original 100% claim, also seemed . . . well . . . it seemed really fucking stupid, i dont know how else to put it . . . like really, im amazed there are still people so complacent and naive to give any organisation free reign without question????
what do they say about absolute power corrupting?
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Ruby, even in a loving Muslim home, it's a male dominated world, where you will serve Islam and you know that loved or not, your brothers will always be closer to your fathers heart. I suspect that is a large part of your persona: rebel, rebelling, renegade, maverick, freedom fighter, from what? Religion, crap, like it or not or even believe in it or not, it will and does affect you. So why the rancor?
It doesn't take much intellect or imagination to pick apart a system that is in place, what does take both is to institute reform without alienating those who could be supporters of change. Impress me with that effort; bashing religion while playing mind games with mental midgets isn't impressing me.
Let me hear something positive; what's your solution? How can this issue be resolved to meet the needs of almost everyone. Discounting the several thousands of years support behind the practice of religion and related tenants what have you got to offer? What.
Most of what I've read is venting, propose a solution, please, show me that you aren't hormonally deranged permanently; as you'd be viewed in another environment.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Firstly, I don't really need to be lectured on what life is like for women in Islam. Been there, done that.
Secondly, that is exactly my point- if you want to get a good look at what life is like in theocratic societies then take a look at the Muslim world: religion and human rights do not exactly go hand in hand. But it is up to Islam to reform itself. I do discuss Islam with my family and Muslim acquaintances but I prefer not to discuss it in too much detail here as there is so much anti-Muslim feeling in the West I would rather not add to it. I don't think Islam is any less or more of a problem than any other religion. But to attack it from the outside ie as a Westerner will only add to its problems and hinder its progress.
Thirdly, I know religion still affects me and I resent that. I know that my inferior status as a woman is directly derived from the Bible. That's why I like to draw attention to it.
Fourthly, I know there is no quick solution, but I think it is vital that we don't allow religion to bypass public scrutiny. I just like to spread the word Raven. I know it will fall on many deaf ears but if there are some people sitting on the fence out there....the more people see how silly it is to base our lives on an ancient book full of superstitions and fairytales the closer we get to a religion free society. Oh I know it's just a crazy dream at this stage but I like to think that one day in the distant future people will look back at us and think "oh my goodness, I can't believe people actually believed that!"
Lastly, you think Morgan and I are playing "mind games with mental midgets"? I presume that includes your 'sorry' little friend who has finally shown his true colours eh?
Comment by Morgan Bell
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a third of Australians do not affiliate with any relgion and many religious people here only have nominal adherance to the basic principles, we have no state religion . . . i think it is our secular society that gives us the right of questioning authority . . . comparing the freedoms or one religion with another isnt really the point, the point is to think for yourself (whether you believe in god or not) and i find it quite disappointing when people tolerate corruption (in church or state or competition or sport etc)
there are plenty of people who believe in god who still question authority and dont turn into "mental midgets" . . . i respect people of faith but i respect them more when they display the ability to reason
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Counter point: I wasn’t lecturing; I was pointedly reminding you about the obvious.
~ ~ ~
Secondly, that is exactly my point- if you want to get a good look at what life is like in theocratic societies then take a look at the Muslim world: religion and human rights do not exactly go hand in hand. But it is up to Islam to reform itself. I do discuss Islam with my family and Muslim acquaintances but I prefer not to discuss it in too much detail here as there is so much anti-Muslim feeling in the West I would rather not add to it. I don't think Islam is any less or more of a problem than any other religion. But to attack it from the outside ie as a Westerner will only add to its problems and hinder its progress.
Counter point: So, it’s alright in your mindset to berate and belittle other religious beliefs that will stir up emotions against them to make you feel better , and to give Islam a chance to reform? Nothing changes without a light being shed upon it and your reasoning here is remarkably skewed.
~ ~ ~
Thirdly, I know religion still affects me and I resent that. I know that my inferior status as a woman is directly derived from the Bible. That's why I like to draw attention to it.
Counter point: directly derived from the bible, your perspective is likely prejudiced by your Islamic upbringing. May I remind you that probably half of the Prophets words are revelations of convenience – none of which benefited Muslim women to any great degree and certainly didn’t resonate with any good will for people of other faiths.
~ ~ ~
Fourthly, I know there is no quick solution, but I think it is vital that we don't allow religion to bypass public scrutiny. I just like to spread the word Raven. I know it will fall on many deaf ears but if there are some people sitting on the fence out there....the more people see how silly it is to base our lives on an ancient book full of superstitions and fairytales the closer we get to a religion free society. Oh I know it's just a crazy dream at this stage but I like to think that one day in the distant future people will look back at us and think "oh my goodness, I can't believe people actually believed that!"
Counter point: Ruby faith is not based on an ancient book full of superstitions and fairy tales, faith is more of a system. And it’s one even you subscribe to in one form or another.
~ ~ ~
Lastly, you think Morgan and I are playing "mind games with mental midgets"? I presume that includes your 'sorry' little friend who has finally shown his true colours eh?
Counter point: This is negative bull shit, and I had hoped for something positive. Are you incapable to answering a direct question? Your colors have been ablaze since you arrived and you are particularly annoying when you attempt this crap with me: and just who is this “sorry little friend?” that you are referring to, yourself? You’re a friend Ruby, Morgan ~ I consider her a friend . . . so, just who the hell are you calling names?
~ ~ ~
Final point: you never answered my question and I doubt that you can, you’re to busy being the martyred or victimized goddess . . .
The hand wringing whining you've presented as an argument is shit, try again or shut up.
Raven .
Comment by Anonymous
It would be nice if we didn't discriminate against dwarves or the otherwise short.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
a third of Australians do not affiliate with any relgion and many religious people here only have nominal adherance to the basic principles, we have no state religion . . . i think it is our secular society that gives us the right of questioning authority . . . comparing the freedoms or one religion with another isnt really the point, the point is to think for yourself (whether you believe in god or not) and i find it quite disappointing when people tolerate corruption (in church or state or competition or sport etc)
there are plenty of people who believe in god who still question authority and dont turn into "mental midgets" . . . i respect people of faith but i respect them more when they display the ability to reason
It would appear then Morgan that 2/3 of Australians are affiliated with some form of religion. We all worship a god Morgan, usually the one whose face we wash in the morning and yet we may still find ourselves longing for something more, that’s where faith steps in to play.
Secular society was initially founded on a faith based system; it didn’t found or give you the right to anything.
You have to quiet your internal dialogue to fully understand the depth of a simple and perhaps uneducated person’s faith they can’t articulate; secularism was never able to instill the gift of hope Morgan.
Don’t cut them off before you attempt to walk in their shoes.
Raven
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
It astounds me that when I criticse political conservatives no-one says a word but when i criticise religious conservatives I get called a hate monger and a bigot. Why? Why this double standard? Why does religion, that is so intolerant of all other belief systems expect so much respect in return?
You keep bringing up the distinction between faith and organised religion and I keep saying to you, my concern has to do with the written words in the Bible. that is where I direct most of my criticism. If people need something to believe in, good for them but that does not mean that i have to respect a book as utterly devoid of logic and reason as the Bible.
Your question- what is my solution? Here is my solution- speaking out against the Bible to as many people in the hope it encourages people to actually read the Bible to see the injustices and hatreds that it contains and then make up their own minds as to whether such words can possibly be the words of a "divine being". I know people find my words and views offensive but I find being told that I am the inheritor of original sin and the most wicked thing alive offensive because THAT IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS I AM! It's just a book, that's all it is. Just a book. i don't see why it deserves to be handled with kid gloves.
I was trying to be cryptic with the whole "sorry" friend thing. I guess you didn't get it. I'd rather not mention names...but let's just say his "complaints department is now open".
Comment by Morgan Bell
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yes you are correct, about 2/3 of Australians do affiliate with a religion (i pointed that fact out mainly as a comparison with the more religious culture in the USA which is more like 85%), and i take your point that secular society evolved, it did not just appear out of nowhere, but i think there is correlation between the improvement of civil rights in English and Australian history and the right to chose which faith system to follow, if any at all . . . maybe that is a misconception, maybe many factors contribute . . . but my opinion is that transparency (ie having all the issues out in the open) and choice are key to freedom
i dont cut people off based on their faith . . . a few of my gay friends are christian but they wisely take it with a grain of salt . . . i just think every individual owes it to themselves to examine the groups they are a part of and acknowledge their mistakes, saying a person or a group is NEVER wrong does everyone a disservice
and i think it is incorrect to say that the capacity for charitable behaviour hinges on faith in god or affiliation with a particular church
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Kleo is steppin in, as she is wont to do when people she loves fight amoungst themselves.
Please, if at any time I am incorrect about anyones intent, correct me.
This is how I see it -
Ruby has done a fairly light hearted rant. I rant on my blog pretty constantly, and I say things that should inflame people every time I write, and yet these arguments never happen. The reasoning behind this I will never fathom - but I have said things against religion that make your words look sickly pale dear Ruby!
This leads people to think that I am anti religion which I am not. I am a big believer in 'follow your own path' 'god is wherever you find him' and all things under such headings. I'll never tell a muslim or a christian he's wrong, because there is great power in ritual and if thats how they worship the divine, so be it. I dont agree, but I dont have to.
(I'm not above spitting at a Catholic priest and blaming it on the same God that made me kneel on a wooden pew until my knees were forever ruined though)
I said recently to Damo that he was god. No, I dont have the hots for him. The mind bending aspects professed in that post are like my personal creed - everyone is God, everyone is going to find out when the body dies and the energy moves on that no great father (or mother) comes along and saves them - if the energy is to progress, it is up to itself. Thats why some call it hell, some heaven.
My dear and darling Raven, I believe that you believe most strongly in the Creator, and it is Ruby's light hearted approach to bagging him out that you have taken offense to - not to mention the bagging out itself. And thus you have brought your fierce and mighty intelligence into play and I appreciate it, I do, o boy, am I having fun on this debate - but you're above us here, I think, you've certainly outclassed me in the intelligence race and I think that was your direct intention. You have raised this post from a bit of a joke and a vent to a global issue, and I dont think thats what it was supposed to be.
*sensual Kleo smile*
Any body got a problem with that?
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
There's really just a couple things you stated that I would like to hit on. The rest I will leave for Ruby to deal with as she chooses.
Let me hear something positive; what's your solution? How can this issue be resolved to meet the needs of almost everyone. Discounting the several thousands of years support behind the practice of religion and related tenants what have you got to offer?
If I may say so, I feel that you're being a bit unfair here. I'm not sure if it is your intent to lay a trap for Ruby, or if that's just the way it looks, but in either case this seems to be an unwinnable proposition. If she claims to have no answer, you can rest your case that her argument is flawed and irrelevant. Then again, the likelihood of Ruby, or anyone else, being able to demonstrate any type of feasible solution to the problem of religious strife that will have any discernible impact in a time of less than several centuries is quite implausible. So what can she say that will be satisfactory? In short, not much.
However, I would say that she gave the best answer that she could, and it is the same one I would give. She is doing what she can already, as I have tried to do here and there. Speaking out against what we perceive as the fundamental flaws with religion is the best option available to us, and it is not an option that we have had for long. The ability to publicly decry religious ills, free from fear of persecution or punishment, is a fairly recent innovation in our history. It is no wonder that we do not have more to offer presently. It has taken us until now to get as far as we have.
Raven, sometimes a solution can't be presented or discussed until there is sufficient acknowledgment that a problem exists in the first place. More people are recognizing the problem, but we are still far away from the point in the process where it would be practical to begin discussing solutions. Slavery didn't end overnight. It required a sufficient number of people to come to the realization that it was evil first, and even then the conflict nearly tore the country asunder. The same can be said for this issue; we are still small voices shouting into the wind. We need many more to rise above the din before we can advance.
Secular society was initially founded on a faith based system; it didn’t found or give you the right to anything.
You have to quiet your internal dialogue to fully understand the depth of a simple and perhaps uneducated person’s faith they can’t articulate; secularism was never able to instill the gift of hope
As almost all older societies featured religion holding a fairly central role in government, it is fair to say that secular society was at least tangentially founded upon a faith based system. However, that does not necessitate that there is anything admirable or gratifying about that. It is possible to acknowledge our roots without praising them. Modern day surgery, for example, arose on the back of painful amputations, doubtful herbal remedies, quackery, and a healthy dose of residual misinformed superstition. We have now clawed our way to our present medical state. Just because you can look back on the path we took, there is no reason to be glad of the bloody bumps in the road. Whether or not secular society came first is irrelevant; it's here now. America, at its founding, represented the triumph of democracy and secularism. It was founded upon Enlightenment principles by men who recognized the need to remove religion from the sphere of government, both to protect the government AND to protect the free right to the religion of one's choosing, or to none at all. We were a brave step forward past the shackles that had bound so many societies until that point. My right to worship or not as I choose, and to praise religion or condemn it, is a direct result of the secular origins of the country, so I'll have to disagree with your statement that it didn't give me the right to anything.
Secularism was never able to instill the gift of hope? How do you know this? Can you see inside my brain? If by hope you mean fanciful beliefs and coping mechanisms, than no, secularism doesn't do that. If, however, we allow that hope includes hope in the freedom to control our own destiny, absent the whims of an unseen ruler, then I would say that secularism has a lot to offer. My hope is for our continued pursuit of knowledge. My hope is for humanity's quest for truth to progress unimpeded, with our understanding of our place in the universe growing ever greater. My hope lies in clarity, not in the nebulous promises and false assurances religion provides. It wasn't until I left religion by the wayside that I truly understood what hope really meant to me. Hope isn't a promise or a gift, it's not a reward for when you die, it's a constantly shifting goal to strive ever higher as a species. If our hope lies in thoughts of peace in eternity, what reason do we have to push forward? Hope in the hereafter equates to hopelessness now.
Perhaps none of what I'm saying resonates with you. It may be that we (believers and non-believers) simply process some information differently, and are incapable of truly understanding the opposing view. Who knows? What I do know is that, mental midget or not, my beliefs are my own and I did not come by them idly. The same applies to you, no doubt. If we as a species could just agree on that much, at least, perhaps we could have some of the civil dialogue required to achieve greater tolerance on both sides. Maybe?
Wow, this was long, huh? I'll shut up now, but I hope to hear your take on what I've said. I apologize for going on so long, sometimes I don't know when to stop typing
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Thats awesome
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
The thing is I do sometimes forget how seriously some people take God and religion and the Bible. For me it has been a book of fairytales for so long I just forget how much some love it and how important it is to them.
But and here is the but, I think it is vital that we are allowed to bag it and criticise it. Religious fundamentalism is on the rise and I for one do not want society to revert to a time when non-believers are too afraid to speak up.
Winston, thank you for putting my own jumbled thoughts down so eloquently. I too thought I was being baited into saying something angry and irrational. How could I, one individual possibly be able to propose a solution to an issue that has plagued mankind since the inception of civilisation? And I agree with you, this is something that is going to take many generations to come to terms with.
I just want to help things along. The reason I am even able to say what I say and not be persecuted is because generations ago, some brave souls started to question the absolute authority of the Church. Slowly their voices got louder and more numerous and the Church was forced to relinquish its iron fisted grip on the hearts and souls of millions of people.
But by no means will I shut up. The minute we allow religion to be above public scrutiny is the minute we begin our descent into a new theocracy.
No effing way.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
I am not convinced that this post was ever truly a joke past the initial posting; the venomous vitriol being injected into references about other bloggers and their views suggests that tempers have flared and I reject the proffered wounded virgin defense.
Ruby is mad because she is a woman, raised in a Muslim religious and male dominated society and is hateful of organized religion; we’re fine up to that point, but to attack faith based belief systems is a pathetic ploy and beneath her.
So, yes, I am disappointed kleo and take umbrage with her tactics. This particular post galls me because she unmercifully flails contentions counter to her own and squeals for mercy when taken to task for her inane attacks on others.
My opinion is that she should take it to the next level or kill it off. And if it goes to the next level, then be prepared to defend her arguments . . . honestly. Nice smile.
Raven
~ ~ ~
Hello Winston, put your mind at ease, it’s not my intent to lay a trap for Ruby because it wouldn’t serve a useful purpose. Actually I happen to agree with many of her contentions.
But therein lay the problem; they’re contentions camouflaging something altogether alien to this discussion. She’s constantly railing and raging against the storm and history of faith, rather than against the institutions of religion that I am adamantly against and oppose at every opportunity.
Winston we have encountered one another on other posts and commented en passant. You are always welcome to speak your piece, and it may be that we will find it necessary to agree to disagree on some issues, but lets first endeavor to explore issues amicably.
Yup, you’re a bit wordy for me Winston, and if by hope you mean fanciful beliefs and coping mechanisms, than no, secularism doesn't do that. That comment is assumptive and demeaning, whereas my hope lies in clarity, not in the nebulous promises and false assurances religion provides is full of arrogant smugness that yours is the only viable solution and will never resonate positively with me.
What I do know is that, mental midget or not, my beliefs are my own and I did not come by them idly. The same applies to you, no doubt. Presumptive and condescending but oh well. I’m often a hypocrite whose hypocrisy knows no boundaries and I am honest about the matter because it amuses me. The same applies to you and Ruby . . . no doubt?
Love to you . . . miscreant malcontented misfits all. I'll go play elsewhere; Ruby has her own path to walk and I am interfering.
Raven
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
RubyLove,
I dont think I ever disputed you there.
RavenDarling,
(I know you said you were going but hey, maybe you'll read it anyway)
At the risk of being crucified, I agree with you there, only because I sense the same sort of rage in Ruby I see in myself - years of being told I was the source of all evil and sin didnt sit well with me, the 60s didnt touch our little outback town or its priests - to this day I have issues with desire and I fully blame the Catholic church. My brother is gay and you just dont say a religious word around him after the way our town treated him.
But, I have seen Catholic priests such as 'Father Bob' (Saffran vs God, Saffran on Sunday on Triple J and Speaking in tongues) and I believe that if I had had a priest like him I wouldnt hate the church like I do. I also listen heartily to David as he sees the Catholic religion in away NO ONE ever has. A part of me wants to go to a Catholic priest and confess all my sins for the last 20 years...(length of time lapsed)....But then he'd probably have a heart attack.
*grin* or is that the attraction?
Fact is, all of us are WAY of topic. This post is titled, 'why I dont believe in God' you want to rip into God, lets go for it. Who is he, what is he, where is he....Hmm, this is going to get difficult, I think.
(Read Damos post again)
IF the God of the Koran and Bible existed, he'd be smiting the hell out of me right now. I think that proves he cannot exist in the form we want him to. Unless Kali exists the way I want her to and she's protecting me from him? Uh oh. Going the way of Damos post now....
I'd just like to finish with the pagans number one rule(even though they got zealos and forgot it like every other goddamn religion)
"Never belittle the path by which another finds peace"
In my original comment, I mentioned the 'Mists of Avalon' a book told from a female perspective about the slaughter of the sacred feminine from our culture. The priestess' were pissed off with christianity - they HATED it, personally, and yet, if a man found a way, peace of any kind through it, they would not tell him he was wrong.
Life is hard enough, and it is meant to be - I think christians cop out and bury their heads from reality, fine, I try not to tell them so. Let them go to God, because if they believe it strongly enough, I believe they WILL get what they pray for.
Everyone does.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
Sorry if I didn't get my point across properly. I'm really not in the business of intentionally offending people......
I look forward to good exchanges with you in the future
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
I was simply demonstrating how easily words and language can be twisted or massaged into something other than the authors intended meaning.
BTW, SL seems to think you are Ruby Soho's alter ego; what say you?
Raven
Comment by Winston
Small Thoughts on Big Questions
I say that I think it's pretty amusing, and more than a little dense. But whatever, she's free to think what she wants.
I can't imagine anyone actually thinking that, though. Ruby and I have many views in common, but we also differ on a number of points. We have different writing styles and, this one is important, IP addresses originating from different continents. If anyone can still think we're the same person in light of all that, I'm not sure what else I could offer.
I already told my wife that apparently I'm an Australian woman. She took it pretty well.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
hahaha Winston you have a serenity about you!
i thought it was a surprising misconception also, your writing styles are really different, you have a very objective academic essay style where as Ruby is quite a sarcastic print media style . . . both are effective in their own way, but i would never confuse them . . . if you are one person then you must be the talented mr ripley LOL
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
The funniest part of it all is that I tend to be the more divisive writer of the two, so the idea of me "creating Winston to say things I cannot say as myself" is hilarious.
But she isn't letting it go...bless her little heart.
Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Comment by baby_blue_iiis
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
And why the big font?
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
people that criticise what you say just dont give you credit for how BIG you say it . . . how typical of you Ruby
Comment by Atheist Person Bloke
Comment by baby_blue_iiis
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Sure, it's acceptable if a man-written document has some inaccuracies and contradictions. But if God is going to put his name to something, then I'd expect him to put a little more effort into his research.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Unless your whole comment was sarcastic, then it would make sense to assume that you are satirising the creationist argument. Is that what you are doing?
Comment by baby_blue_iiis
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Sorry, I missed the sarcasm. That's usually my forte. haha.
Comment by Anonymous
However, this cannot in any way be used as evidence that no god at all exists, just that the christians have it wrong.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Perhaps the images of Star of David, Crucifix and Crescent Of Islam didn't make that clear enough?
Comment by Finson
sorry about that...
~Kaj
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by Krissa
I, myself, became an atheist when I was 23, two years ago, though I lost my faith about 3 years before that.
Have a great day!
Comment by baby_blue_iiis
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Hi baby blue, i can understand why you feel that way. i think most people do, i just don't agree. It really doesn't bother me that I will cease to exist when I die. As Mark Twain said when asked if the thought of not having an afterlife bothered him. "I didn't exist for billions of years without it being the slightest inconvenience to me".
Comment by baby_blue_iiis
Comment by sarog
now,say there was a book full of accurate facts,that didnt offend women...would that change your beliefs?
until someone comes up with a universal theory for everything i am gonna have believe in a god and abandon religion
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Not really, no. But it does make me determined to enjoy and make the most of the time I do have here. Honestly, I don't think I am any more important than any other life form on this planet just because I happen to belong to the species known as "homo sapien".
Comment by Dr Dmo
Don't rule out anything in the multiverse though.
Things are not just stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine.
Start off by learning to know nothing and go from there.
Peace.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by baby_blue_iiis
Haven't seen any other species find a cure for their species diseases.
Comment by Anonymous
I know you all know this already but I'll share it again ayway and thank you in advance for listening. God loved us so much that He gave us all free-will which is the ability to choose to love Him or Not. Just like you do not want people to be forced to love you neither does God, even though He created us.
So just as you choose to believe that the wind causes trees to sway (although you can not see it), and just as you choose to believe a door will open simply because you turn the knob (having no proof that it will), or just as you choose to believe your response will be posted on the internet at the click of a button (without any guarantee), believing in a God you can not see requires the same amount of "faith" you place in these other actions. It's simply your choice.
God is not obligated to win you over because you choose not to believe. He performed miracles in the Old Testament and people did not believe then. Jesus and His disciples performed miracles in their day and many did not believe then. So your choice to "not believe' comes as no surprise to God because He gave you freewill ... but you unbelief does not stop Him from being God. Just like when someone chooses to believe a lie about you, the fact they choose to believe the lie does not override what you know is true about yourself.
Genuine "Faith" is what enables you to see real miracles today. God does not perform tricks to convince anyone that He "IS" and "Always" will be the only true and living God.
The sad part is this ... finding out that He is real after death is the wrong time to realize that you should have held on to your "faith" that you say you lost (-:
Best of everything to you and any others in this post in your quest to believe in something ... I simply pray in Jesus Christ name that you'll find the way before its too late to turn. Love ya.
Paul
Comment by Oxnard
Comment by The Monkey on the Tiger
I suggest looking it up for yourself.
My only comment as a person who grew up 99% religion free for my 23 years of life is that arguing either way really gets you nowhere. Religion is best left in your head if anything. It only seems to build up walls that are nearly impossible to scale and take forever to break down. You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God so what's the point of it all? There's a vast amount of the universe we can see from a far to ponder as intellectual exercises.
I guess that's all from me.
Main point...keep your prejiduce super-zombies to yourself.
Comment by Anonymous
Without a fundamental understanding of nature and science people recorded events as omens, signs etc that would today be more easily explained.
Comment by norsinnewyork
1) miracles. this is an emotional argument, not logical. saying you want to see them isn't a good argument. for this to be valid, you need to explain why god should preform miracles.
2) i can't speak for christian's or muslim's (although im sure this point works for them too), but i can assure you that jews don't believe in the old testament simply because it says so. we know what a circular argument is. you are beginning with the assumption that no religious person has ever understood the philosophy of logic, and has analyzed their own religion. the title "lack of evidence" is correct. all we have is extrapolation and logical conclusion. if it helps, there is no concrete evidence of evolution or the big bang either (and i do believe in both), however science recognizes extrapolation as a valid form of induction.
3) reason forced you not to. this too is emotional. it sounds good with words like reason, but your concluding statement is "i just can't". in fact the whole paragraph is how you say how can you, as a reasoning individual, believe this, while neglecting to give a proper reason. if you are refering to your other 9 statements as your reasons, this point is extraneous, and is just filling up space.
4) contradictions. again, i can only address the old testament one, as i am not as well versed on the rest. it is not a contradiction to say one is both merciful and destructive. a father can punish a child, yet love him. the word pity cannot apply by god. a father can feel pity simply because there is a part of him that regrets doing the action, even though he recognizes the necessity. the concept of absolute truth on omniscience negates that, by definition.
5) cain and abel. cain's wife was his sister. this is fairly clear in the verses...
6)the teapot problem. russell makes a very good point. he does. the fact that you can't disprove something is not proof or an indicator of its existence. this is the reason behind occum's razor. one needs some sort of positive assertion to beliecve in something, not just a lack of negatives. shockingly though, ever theist i have ever spoken to (and there have been a lot, from many different religions), have some sort of positive assertion for their religion. this is when the "you have no disproof" theory comes in. it works like a scale. if we have weight on one side of the scale, to entertain a proper debate, we need weight on the other side. if we come in with positive assertions, we would like our counterpart in the debate to do the same.
7) smarter peope than you. there have been intelligent people on both sides of the debate. in fact, f you want to use this argument, historically the intelligent and educated have leaned towards religion...
8) the encyclopedia britannica. again emotional. your saying you liked one story better than the other. you did this when you were 12. so?
9) natural selection. most noted in the butterfly analysis in london. yup, natural selection does exist. noone debates that. however, that's not the aspect of evolution that some theists don't like. the issue is in darwin's theory of evolution through genetic mutation. this theory has been disproven, but i will deal with the neo-darwinistic approaches which still stand. 1, no evidence. not even a little, that's what the search for the missing link is about. however, they have extrapolation (i mentioned this earlier), and that is what they are basing there argument on. however evolution does not, and never has, disproven religion. in fact, at the time that darwin wrote his theory, he was an observant christian. your looking for unguided evolution, which is why and not how. science doesn't do why, so you can't disprove why through science. why is philospohy. try looking up Nietzsche and Kant. evolution is simply the mechanism used to spawn creation.
10) he hates women. again let me handle the old testament quotes. the uncleanliness quote. jews consider menstrual blood to be spritually unclean because it is related to death (it is the loss for potential for life). if man or women becomes in contact with things related to death, they have the same laws regarding spiritual uncleanliness. this is in no way discriminatory to women. the non-virgin death quote. yes, we believe in celibacy before marriage. this apllies to men as well as women. the reason this law is written about women is they have a physical sign when they lose there virginity (they have no hyman and do not bleed on the wedding night), so it is impractical to write this law about men. however, we have the same restrictions.
i look forward to your response.
Comment by Anonymous
I've read your post and agree with you that being religious can be rather boring (-: I suggest to you that believing God through His Son Jesus Christ is totally different then being religious.
You are right in stating the matter can be endlessly debated back and forth. However .. I submit to you that if you are genuinely seeking truth about the matter and are willing to try finding truth God's way, I am quite positive that you or anyone else will not be disapointed (-:
For 99% of your adult life, you have exercised your God given ability to chose what you wish to believe about Him. He ever wanted Robots for servants or else He would created them (-:
You and any others can continue to believe that God does not exist and the world will turn just as God created it to.
And in the end, if you wait till then, you will discover that God really does exist but then ..... You'll have an eternity to think about what you should've done (-:
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Haven't seen any other species find a cure for their species diseases.
Hi Baby Blue, this is true. But then we also kill and torture for the pleasure of it so that kinda takes the gloss of our achievements a bit. I'm not disputing that our intelligence sets us apart but I don't think it entitles us to view the rest of the world as simply a toy for our perusal. I do think we evolved and somewhere along the way, we literally got too smart for our own good.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
1. Actually, it's not an emotional argument. I was being sarcastic. I don't want "God" to perform miracles. My point is simply that he doesn't. In stark contrast to Biblical times when they were quite commonplace. In other words, since miracles are by definition impossible because they defy all the laws of physics, then they can't have happened. And the fact that miracles don't happen today only gives weight to this argument.
2. There is more evidence of evolution then there is of gravity. Enough said. But if you have other reasons for believing in the Old Testament besides the fact that it tells you too, can you please share them with me?
3. Actually reason is the opposite of emotion. Human reason requires that we weigh up the situation looking at the evidence before us, we look at the probability, we look at the facts. The reason I "just can't" accept the existence of God is because to do so flies in the face of evidence based reasoning. There is no evidence pointing to his existence. not a scrap. And the story makes no sense. It is not my emotions telling me this but my brain.
4. Um okay, this is a tough one. What you seem to be saying is that it's okay that the Bible contradicts itself because it deals with God and God is omniscient and even though it doesn't make sense to us it makes sense to him so lets not bother with the details. Lets just follow the Bible because it tells us to. Ah no, no thanks. If God wants me to take any notice of the Bible, he should have written it so that it made more sense to me since I am a human and not an omniscient being.
5.Actually the Bible never says that Cain's wife was his sister. This is what it says (King James Version):
Genesis 4: 16-17
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Hmmm. He left the presence of God and wandered off into the land of Nod. That's where he met her. But why would his sister be there? And who were the other inhabitants of Nod?
Actually, this passage gets me thinking. God puts the "mark of Cain" on him to identify Cain, so that he would not be killed. but if everyone on Earth back then were either his siblings or his parents, wouldn't they have known him already? Come on. This story has more holes in it than a 5 kilogram block of Swiss cheese.
6. Sorry, "you have no disproof" just does not cut it for me.
If we went around worshipping every God we couldn't disprove then Zeus and Thor would till be adored by millions.
7. This was really just intended to pique peopple's interest and encourage them to do further reading. Also, historically speaking intelligent people of the past had no choice but to publicly profess belief in God and religion. The Church was not always as friendly as it is today. You know, heresy, the Inquisition, the Burning Times, etc, etc, etc.
8. Um, no choosing the Britannica over the koran was not an emotional decision. The Britannica is based on research and evidence. I didn't like one story better than another. i chose evidence and facts over fairytales.
9. Yes, I know that the Catholic Church and some other religions now claim to believe in Intelligent Design. However, to do so is actually flying in the face of everything the Bible says. Did Adam and Eve exist or not? If not, then why the hell are we here? If it didn't happen the way the Bible said it happened then we should still all be living in Eden. you can't have it both ways. You either believe in the Bible or you don't.
I don't.
10. So because women have a tell tale sign of their virgin status it's okay to discriminate against them? Right, you certainly cleared that up. Maybe if God was fair he wouldn't have given us women such a bum deal as to make us bleed and invite the whole tribe to know if we have had sex or not.
That's really not an answer.
Comment by Anonymous
However, I hope you're careful when presenting these texts to christians because most of the texts you quote from the bible are from Ecclesiasticus which they do not consider to part of the bible. I don't know what Jews think about Ecclesiasticus, and it sounds like you know more about Islam's beliefs than I ever will.
Not that it matters since the whole bible bullshit anyway.
Thanks for being one more rational person in the world!
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Also, it was the early Catholic Church that decided which books were canonical and which were apocryphal so it amuses me that other Christians are now disputing the Catholic version of the Bible, since they pretty much put it together.
Also, Jewish prayers and custom is so deeply entrenched in anti-women sentiment, I really don't think they can say anything. Jewish men still say prayers that include the words:
"I thank you Lord for not making me a Gentile.
I thank you Lord for not making me a woman"
Charming.
Comment by Anonymous (Paul)
First of all, are you really seeking truth? Because if you are, then I say lets go off-line with this (-: and probe for truth. Why? Because, in this forum the temptation will always be present to defend rather then comprehend.
Secondly, its obvious that you believe some portions of the Bible since you are so adamant about God hating women (lol). Then you need also believe what it says in 1Cor. 2:14. The truth of this verse is evident in your post and the comments of others as well.
The Bible has much to say about "righteous" God reverencing women and God, in the Old and New Testament, appointed and used many of them in great positions of honor. But you don't mention any of them in making your case (-:
If you want to know what Pepsi is like, you have to try the product (-: If you want to know what a steak taste like, you have to take a bite (-: If you truly want to experience a miracle from God, then you have to do it God's way. Otherwise, you can talk about it until you drop gurl. Miracles are happening everyday, all around the world, but you can't see them because you can't understand them right now (-:
The Pharisees had the same experience as Jesus was standing in their faces ... they still wanted to see a sign to (lol). They just refused to try it or see it God's way. Don't take their path, you have a Paul like interlect that God has obviously given you for a reason. Give Him a chance to show you why He made you so intelligent and convincing gurl. Peace out & love ya (-:
Matt.7:13-14.
Comment by Dr Dmo
What kind of God would give his creation reason & logic and then defy both in the delivery of his message to them?
Comment by norsinnewyork
first, let me say i appreciate you taking the time to adress my points. it shows a level of caring beyond most of the rants on the internet. now to respond:
1) so your not saying that it's because there are no miracles today. your saying it's because miracles and physics clash, and this cannot be. this is a fairly valid argument. however, that's kind of the definition of miracles, so this argument is going to run in circles...
2) actually newtonian gravity has been proven wrong (quantum physics, non-newtonian liquids, string theory), so using it as a marker to show the validity of evolution doesn't really hold that much weight. the positive assertions of religion is a very long discussion. if you would like to turn towards that, id be more than happy to, but that point alone is a longer discussion than all 10 other points, so i'd like to handle the rest and then perhaps get back to this.
3) so i made two points here. your talking aout the second one. you say there are lots of reasons, yet your reasons are the other 9 mentioned. this point is irrelevant. this isn't to say the reasons are invalid (thats all my other discussions), but just that this doesnt add another point to the tally.
4) i wasn't reffering to contradictions in general. i feel each contradiction can be explained. however, i am only versed in the old testament so i could only handle the quote about how god is merciful and god is destructive. the omniscience explains the lack of pity when taking disciplinary action (pity comes with self doubt, self doubt is impossible with omniscience...)
5) ok, i don't study from the kng james version, and mine comes with commentary explaining, but lets take it the other way. why assume it wasn't his sister? if they didn't know him, they would not have reason to kill him anyways. the mark was to remind those who did know him that god did not want him killed...
6) your right. this is no proof. it is exactly what it sounds like. you have no disproof. we do not use this to prove god. we say this when you say "i can prove there is no god". we respond "no you can't" thats all that means.
7)absolutely. but you can't attribute all intelligent thought of old to fear. there were many great physicians and scholars who were jewish (and im sure many other religions, but again, i only know my own), for example, maimonidies medicine, or cohen's d in statistics, that professed belief in god in opposition to the church and it's torturous methods.
8) actually, britannica tells the story that makes the most sense to it. it wasn't based on archeological findings. i did the research. there is no evidence of any kind of a mass emmigration of slaves from egypt. this fact is often used against us, but here it becomes useful.
9) adam and eve did exist... we don't say they didn't. your question is on the six days then. how can evolution have happened in six days? (the big bang is instantaneous, so not so much a question). now i grew up with commentaries written long before the theory of evolution that say the six days aren't literally six days, but let's approach this logically without involving evolution. what is a day? is it a period of 24 hours? hours were made up in the 1200's. is it from sunrise to sunrise? there was no sun until day 3... is it one revolution of the earth on its axis? there was no formed earth until the second day... it has never made any sense to think of them as literal 24 hour periods. i beleive in the creation story, but i believe it is possible, not for sure, but possible, that evolution occured throughout the 6th "day" from animal to man...
10) sure it is. we cannot have sex before marriage. this actually isnt what it is reffering to, but lets move on from here. there are two stages of marriage in jewish law. the first causes the woman to be singled out to the man. she cannot have sex with anyone, as she is a married woman. the second allows her to have sex with her husband. the punishment for sex during that period in between is death. period. no disrimination. however, we must use everything in our repertoire to determine this. women have more signs... if anything this is discriminatory towards males. if we commit a sin deserving of death and don't receive punishment, there sin is not cleansed, and thus face worse punishment in the afterlife. i know this sounds fanatical, but accepting god and subsequently accepting an afterlife, this makes perfect sense. and as this is a negative assertion, that statement is actually not circular...
Comment by Anonymous (Paul)
What kind of God would give his creation free will and then boil them in eternal hell for using it?
(What kind of parent teaches their child the difference between right and wrong and then punishes the child when he/she makes the wrong decision (-: If we don't condemn parents for this ... then why condemn God for it? God teaches us about both sides of living in the earth and the benefits/ consequences of each side. He then allows us to choose which path of life we desire to live. So then, God doesn't send a person to hell ... one chooses the path that leads in that direction .. God simply renders the final judgment on our choice in the end (-: Its the same principle applied in the case of someone who chooses a life of crime. The prison wasn't built for that person, but in choosing a life crime; they made prison their reality.
What kind of God would give his creation reason & logic and then defy both in the delivery of his message to them?
(What kind of CEO teaches his/her vision but then make decisions that seem to go against what they say (-: If we don't condemn natural leaders for this ... then why condemn God? God tells us in His Word that our thoughts are not His thoughts and His ways are so much higher then our ways. The same thing can be seen at work for those in leadership positions that make policy affecting or enacting decisions. The folks at the bottom grumble and complain about the decisions from the top because they believe they understand the intended vision or direction of the company. But what they fail to understand is that most often their knowledge is based on limited insight of the vision based on the role their indivdual jobs plays in the overall vision or "big picture" of things. In other words, they only see how the decision affects their world and not the entire company. God's decision from the very beginning was to redeem "mankind." And, although He cares about our individual life issues, His overall concern is still for the redemption of "mankind." Therefore, when our thinking or logic is self-centered, it puts us outside of the will or "big picture" of God's originial plan for "mankind." You see, God's original plan or vision has not changed. We simply, like the folks in the workplace, become overly preoccupied with how God's laws affect just our little world, and fail to care as a result about how our choices, actions, decisions, affect others around us based on God's oringinal plan to redeem "mankind." This kind of selfish thinking/logic causes us to then believe, just like most employees think of thier bosses, that God simply does't have a clue from the top of what life is really all about (-: But logically speaking, who could know better than a God who sets up high and sees how every individual life decision we make will affect not only us but others down the road along our path. (Selah - which simply means think about it)
Paul (contact_pq@yahoo.com)
Comment by Dr Dmo
Usually a compassionate parent who would limit the punishment to reflect the extent of the crime.
Why, on the one hand is God not interested in the 'low-level' details of our individual lives, yet dishes out such harsh punishment for minor personal infractions?
How can God distance himself from the punishment when it is supposedly his own creation?
You say that he is merely 'teaching us about both sides of the earth' & 'allowing us to choose'. This suggests that he is only teaching us about a situation that already exists, not one of his own creation & control.
Also why is the hell described in the Bible so reflective of torture techniques of the same era? It does suggest that those who wrote the text used their own imaginations rather than scribing the inspired words of a diety.
Don't get me wrong, I think the basic rules of Christianity are generally pretty sound, I just don't see why they need to be backed up by threats of eternal punishment and distinctly non-compassionate entrail-ripping type behaviour.
I am, as you have probably worked out, a non-believer who doesn't feel the need to be threatened in order to treat others with empathy & compassion. I resent the assumption by your church that I need to be threatened in order to do the right thing and think that the eternal reward/eternal damnation system is a little extreme in many grey-areas of our modern lives.
Lastly, it would be very easy for God to clear the matter up and take all the interpretation and misinterpretation out of the equation with a recordable appearance, rather than leaving his creation with garbled stories from pre-recorded times to base our decisions on.
regards, Dr Dmo
Comment by blackspamhole
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Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
What about faith as a general concept? How do you feel about that?
I don't like organised religion. Who wrote the bible? Jesus' disciples? Surely there was some interpretation right there. Who ran the churches? Men. So maybe it's not God to blame but man and the organised religions they created. Just a thought.
I believe in spirituality - my spirituality. But I think most people have some sort of faith in the sense that we really do hope and believe that everything will be alright in the end.
Faith to me is just relinquishing total control. Not necessarily relinquishing to someone else but just accept that I simply can't control everything. The world is bigger than I am.
Everyone is, at least partly, driven by the conscience. Conscience is an intangible thing but something that we so heavily rely on. I would put conscience in the same basket as faith because they're both intangible.
The "big bang" theory is a curious one. One day the earth wasn't here and then BANG, there it was. Sounds a bit god like to me. Science doesn't have all the answers either so I definitely wouldn't have blind faith in that.
I don't think blind faith is healthy. Question everything. Always stay open to new ideas. Even the re-introduction of old ones. That's my philosophy.
But I've seen people turn to church or the Bible in some critical moments for comfort.
One of the boys in my daughter's class has leukemia. He is currently in hospital being treated. While western medicine and science is doing its best to fix him, his mother prays everyday to God to make her son better. My immediate reaction was, well what if he dies? Is she going to ask God why he didn't save her son? Will she be mad at him? Will she ask 'why me, why him ?' Probably. But she'll ask these questions anyway. Even if she directs them towards the doctors.
But in the meantime this is the one thing that keeps her going through his ordeal. The one small thing that can give her some comfort. Faith.
Religion doesn't work for you Ruby and that's absolutely fine. It doesn't really work for me either, but I am intrigued by it.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by postmoderncritic
Postmodern Critic
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Padsoc
Comment by postmoderncritic
Postmodern Critic
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Padsoc
Religion works for a lot of people.
I think all of those people would benefit from finding something else that works in the marketplace of beliefs.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Sure. But what?
And if we're just redirecting then would it be fair to say that people need to believe in something? To have some sort of guide or philosophy?
And if it is working for them, why change?
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by postmoderncritic
Postmodern Critic
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Padsoc
I believe in people, and I think that would be a good start for anyone...
I don't know about other people, but I need to constantly question what I believe in, and if there's a metanarrative involved (a universal truth story) that would make me miserable. So I encourage people to question what it means to believe in what they do, and 'change their mind' everyday.
And if it is working for them, why change?
I believe that the people who are happy with religion simply aren't aware that they could do better.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
I just remembered reading an article, probably over a year a go now and I can't remember who wrote it, teacher perhaps? Anyways.... he suggested since in public schools scripture isn't compulsory that it should be replaced with an ethics lesson.
I think he was commenting on that our society is built on basic christian values and if kids weren't learning it through religion/scripture that they could just introduce an ethics course to illustrate how society functions etc.
Why can't parents teach ethics to their kids? Well that's another issue
Sounds like a good idea. What do you think?
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by postmoderncritic
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I like it - if people want to study the bible or whatever there's no-one stopping them, but I don't think the education system should promote any kind of religion.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
I believe that the people who are happy with religion simply aren't aware that they could do better.
The thing with religion or any belief system is that it is purely subjective. What works for you and me, doesn't work for others. And I can't tell others what to believe because I absolutely hate it when people tell me what I should believe.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by postmoderncritic
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Padsoc
I was thinking more like being joyous over cheddar cheese (or wiz) when you could have camembert or brie.
I'm not interested in telling other people what to do either - I believe in asking them questions and hopefully inspiring them to search for their own. But I don't think anyone is happy to stop questioning and accept some kind of 'certainty' in life, and I believe that anyone who tries to convince me that has issues they need to work through.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
What about faith as a general concept? How do you feel about that?
I guess my honest opinion is that I struggle to see how people can believe in anything that has no factual basis. Faith in yourself or faith in your friends/family is one thing because it substantial ie those people really exist. But to place faith in a concept such as "god', for which there is no empirical evidence whatsoever strikes me as a waste of time. Mostly because it encourages one to absolve oneself of responsibility and excuses bad behaviour. eg. the war currently being waged on women's and gay rights in America.
My father was a man of strong faith and it was because of his faith that he gave up the woman he loved and married my mother. It was because of his faith that he stayed married to her. It was because of his faith that he was unhappy his whole life. Sure, his faith gave him consolation that he would be rewarded in the next life but if not for his faith then perhaps he may have sought and found his own rewards in this one.
I don't like organised religion. Who wrote the bible? Jesus' disciples? Surely there was some interpretation right there.
Actually the New Testament was written between 70-140 years after Jesus' death. So not only is it open to interpretation, it is little more than Chinese Whispers.
Who ran the churches? Men. So maybe it's not God to blame but man and the organised religions they created.
Well lack of evidence for the existence of God indicates that God is one of man creations. So I really can't separate the two.
The "big bang" theory is a curious one. One day the earth wasn't here and then BANG, there it was. Sounds a bit god like to me. Science doesn't have all the answers either so I definitely wouldn't have blind faith in that.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on astronomy. But I do know that there is a lot more complexity to the Big Bang, other than the world was not here then suddenly it was. But I'll just quote Stephen Hawking here, "I'm not saying God does not exist, only that he is not necessary". I would never encourage anyone to have "blind faith" in science. That goes against everything science stands for. Scientists are the first to discard deep-seated beliefs when new evidence comes along. And that is why faith is so dangerous. because it encourages the faithful to disregard evidence in favour of groundless belief.
One of the boys in my daughter's class has leukemia. He is currently in hospital being treated. While western medicine and science is doing its best to fix him, his mother prays everyday to God to make her son better.
I can see how praying etc will make her feel better, as it most likely gives her a feeling of a little control over a horrible situation and I'm not about to suggest she stop praying. However, note that it is science and medicine which is actually working to help the boy. Not God. But I have no doubt that should her child pull through she will thank God for answering her prayers. Ce'st la vie.
I never said I wanted to eradicate religion. I would never advocate spreading ideas by force. I only meant that I hope that one day the society will evolve to the point where faith in God is no longer desirable, where humans have progressed to the stage whereby we focus more on improving the world we live in rather than worry about what is going to happen to us when we die. I see it as a natural, organic process, not something which is forced on the unwilling (as religion often is). That is why I know it will not happen for thousands of years. That's how long it will take for humans to reach that conclusion on their own.
I don't see why that is "unfair". That's like saying it is unfair to say that "I hope Communism will die out". I'm sure Communism works for some people but does that mean that I have to respect it? Now, I'm not equating God with Communism but I do see religion and God as an ideology like any other. It is anyone and everyone's right to adopt it, but likewise it is mine and anyone else's right to scrutinse and criticise it.
It makes me very unpopular with some people I know, but honestly Mrs M, we only need to look at history (and even some countries in the world today which still adhere to religious law), to know what life is like when religion is not held accountable.
They only stopped burning witches at the stake two hundred years ago. We really have not come that far at all.
Comment by Anonymous
Personally, I don't think I've ever been religious. My mother has become more religious since I've gone off to college and when I finally tell her I don't really believe in God it's going to be a scary day. This debate has given me some good questions to ask her or at least let her see my point of view.
And on a side note, about women showing when we have sex. Not always true. Any physical activity, like sports, can tear the hymen. Also, many people don't bleed their first time, I sure didn't. There's a few factors that make a difference, like size of men and women etc, (not sure if I should be more detailed...)
But yeah, great debate guys.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Sorry Ruby. I said that I thought you were being unfair because I was getting the impression that you wanted to actively try and convince people that following a religion was waste of time.
Asking people to question their beliefs is one thing but to make it point to convince them otherwise I think is a little pushy. But I get now that you're not doing that.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I'm just shootin' the breeze here. And you seem to be well versed so who better to start a discussion with.
Your example of your father and faith is the almost identical of my father but faith wasn't his driving force...social acceptance and expectation was his.
But I've been thinking about Luke (he's the kid with leukemia) and his mother Lee.
The world has come closer than ever before to mixing science and faith, don't you think? We rely on western medicine more now than ever before in history because medical science just wasn't available to us.
But not even medical science has all the answers or any science. They don't know exactly how the body works and often there are things that happen that they can't explain. Even when someone gets betters.
Medical science gives no guarantee that Luke will get better. There is still every chance that he might die. So until medical science is 100% perfect, people like Lee will continue to use prayer to maybe, just maybe help heal her son. It's not logical or rational...it's faith.
Much like she is putting her faith her God, she is putting faith in the doctors to cure her. She puts her trust, her faith in the university that trained him, the hospital that gave him the experience.
I think at the core of everyone, we have and use faith. Whether it is faith in a religion, science, philosophy, whatever we have something that we use to help us through, give us direction.
Like I was saying to PMC, I think it is imperative to question your motives, your drive, your faith. I think there is a difference between faith and blind faith. But questioning doesn't necessarily mean that you will change tack. Questioning could also result in further confirming what you have believed in so far.
I don't buy the bible in it's entirety either. You've pointed out rather questionable verses. I'm with you about war and homosexuality and women aren't the lesser sex, absolutely.
But it does have good qualities about it. There are some good verses in there.
I can't remember where you wrote this but you said that if you can't accept the bible in its entirety you would reject it all.
Me, I would just pick the good bits and forget the rest. And why can we do this? Because we live in a society that allows it. We don't let religion dictate our society. So maybe your dream will come true one day. Who knows?
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Anonymous
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Comment by RecentAthiest
First off the Koran isn't the same as Christianity or does it corrispond with it, they are related though.
Second, all of mankind, according to the bible, comes from Adam, because all decendants during that time were recorded by the male side of the geneology. Concluding that Noah, who's a decendant of Adam, is also the father of all people, according to the Bible.
Which brings me to my last point, the bible wasn't just written for people today, it had the morals and the law of that day and age threaded throught it. Like for instance the law in that day was that women had to cover their faces and had speak through their husband in public places. That's why when he writes the letter of Corinthians he says women shouldn't speak, because they had no right to by law. So when it says those things about women its not bashing them. Its stating valid, and lawfuls points to people of that time period.
Comment by Kyah